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BPD and autism spectrum

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BPD and autism spectrum

Postby pamelaperejil » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:42 am

Does anyone here have a dual diagnosis or did you have to rule out autism spectrum before getting your BPD diagnosis? Any thoughts on the similarities and differences between the two?
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby pamelaperejil » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:30 am

This is a list of quotes taken from a conversation between a self dx borderline and a self dx autist. Can you tell who said what?:

I experience moodiness and difficulty with people at times...

The way I think and process things almost seems to be... computer-like, even though I do experience emotions...

it seems to be very easy for me to offend other people, make them angry, and/or hurt their feelings...

I'm not socially skilled...

I think the secret to communication lies in striking a balance between the message and the other-message. The message being: you do xyz and it bothers me. The other message being: how *could* you do that? It's related to the idea that in everyone there exists both an adult and a child. Provided you've phrased it correctly, the adult hears the message. But the child still hears the other message, and then converts it to: you're a horrible person, I don't love you!!! It's almost impossible for the child *not* to hear that, even when you're perfectly polite, mature, respectful, diplomatic. The adult will "get" all that. The child won't...

The way the logic works in my mind, it should be possible to analyze the entire situation, document the details in some fashion after dissecting and scrutinizing every side and every detail, and then verbally tell the offending party what they have done wrong and how they should change their behavior/attitude accordingly, with the unspoken understanding that an apology from the offender should be automatically forthcoming after the itemized list is presented in its thoroughness...

If you're dealing with an arrogant, pig-headed person who thinks they know best and won't listen to anyone... they get defensive or consider it an attack if you were to confront them or present an itemized list about what was done wrong...

If you TRY to say what you're really thinking or feeling, the drama/reaction you get afterward just isn't worth it. Or in some cases, if you try talking to somebody, you don't really get the resolution or the healing responses that you anticipated or needed...

Though... part of my issues probably have to do with social anxiety...

I am very sensitive and I just don't like dealing with people that much...

I've found that whenever I do try to be upfront, and if someone doesn't get my intent or they get hurt by it, I've found myself feeling slighted like, "Well, they just weren't listening correctly to my intent or what I really meant, it's not my fault if they didn't get it."...

I mean... I know I have gotten better about this, but there have been many, many, many times in the past when I've had a very cold and harsh attitude/mentality toward other people's reactions and emotions....I've basically felt and acted like, "This person is mad? This person is feeling hurt? Well, this is incorrect. This needs to be changed or edited, or this person just really needs to... not be this way."...

I think part of this is because people interaction and especially their reaction to certain things was... foreign to me. I found I had great difficulty in my youth because sometimes, I WOULD do or say something that another person took great offense to, and for the life of me I wouldn't understand why everybody around me had suddenly "turned mean", at least... that's the way my mind perceived it at the time...

Everybody is getting mad, turning "mean", and worst of all, maybe you were just copying something that you saw someone else doing somewhere else entirely, maybe even your own parent's behavior, and suddenly... it seems like everybody around you who is involved and/or addressing the situation is turning mean, and you're having certain privileges taken away, the principal is getting involved, and... you just don't get WHY, at the time...

As a result, not only did I learn NOTHING from the entire thing...in a weird way, it also taught me not to deal with or get over my issues, because my response to things was to try and forget and calm down and stay away from people after they first started to "act mean"...

I seem to be a very, very slow processor at times...

I think part of this might be due to my denseness when it comes to reading body language or figuring out what people really meant when they were talking...

Or in other cases, well... let's just say I didn't really start to develop cognitively and socially in some ways until after I was 19...

In a way, I guess it's almost like waking up and realizing you'd been sleepwalking through life while recording everything mentally, and then BAM, one day you wake up and managed to filter through everything that ever happened with more experience and awareness, but it's too late because the past is gone and set in stone, and all you can do for a time is lament over a lot of missed opportunities, things you wish you had said or done differently, and people you wish you could punch in the gut because some of what they did was actually arrogant, cruel, or just taking advantage of you...

Others do seem to have a much more intuitive grasp on what is or isn't appropriate...

My response for so many years was to gt angry at them for "being mean" rather than telling me what the problem was...

I'm still struggling with the idea that what happens is partly my fault through failing to observe social norms and expecting that others bear the burden of telling me when something is wrong, telling me my mistakes...

There is some bad/immature behavior and avoidance on their part as well...

I have sometimes been told that I get into these “set in stone” plans or mindsets, where I end up getting really upset or devastated when things don’t go that way, sometimes to the point where I just want to get up on the entire thing I was starting to do or get into, much to the detriment of other people who were either excited that I was doing it or they were trying to support me while I was trying to get into something new...

But there are also areas where I feel that many, many things in my life have resulted in meltdowns and depression… partly because the people around me did not prepare me properly, or my own delusional brain concocted a fantasy that I expected to play out in reality...

For example, when I was a teenager...he basically laid out this plan for me that once I turned 18, God was going to bring the perfect man into my life, that I would make an awesome housewife and he even told me when I was 17 that that was when I needed to start thinking about how many kids I wanted, because something was gonna happen very, very soon...

Add to the fact that I was heavily sheltered for the most part, and did not have much experience with people and not really any friends, (plus my parents liked to keep me and my brother out of the public eye for the most part), I had this awesome mental image that I was gonna become a whole new, mature person capable of ANYTHING once I hit 18, and that God was gonna drop the perfect guy into my lap who would make me feel good always...

But I had to spend nearly a full decade being angry and having serious trust issues with my parents over what was reality and what wasn’t, because I felt honestly betrayed by my own family, by God for not following through what He was “supposed” to give me automatically according to my Dad, and… there were a great many things that were “supposed” to happen automatically just because I had turned 18, and they never did...

So what is a young, sheltered, naive person supposed to think about anything or anyone, when she is not prepared properly for ANYTHING, any issues are just ignored or suppressed, and then it’s basically just, “Okie-day YAY you’re legal-aged now, your awesome fairy tale existence is just beginning now! 8D” And then….. you spend years angry, waiting for the magic to start, and it never does...

It’s like believing in Santa Clause for waaaaaaaaay too long, and then being forced to see that the world isn’t really like that and you’ve been living tucked away in a fantasy, idealistic reality that only exists in your own head, when the true reality is much harder and much harsher… to the point where you still want to cling to your beautiful fantasies and try to warp reality to fit into that mold, because actual reality is much too harsh to accept sometimes...

But… I have also come to realize that in a lot of ways, I think I’ve also been very, very spoiled for the most part...

In the end, I’ve probably just been… sort of throwing a decade-long temper tantrum of sorts because I never learned to deal with anything very well, and… I’ve always had the mindset, to some degree, that if I get it into my head somehow that things are gonna go a certain way and I’m gonna get blah-blah by a certain age or a certain time, I have sometimes experienced severe meltdowns and depression over the fact that it didn’t happen that way, I didn’t get whatever it is, and then I go through a period where it’s like my life is over and I don’t know what to do or think anymore.

The only ways I’ve managed to feel more at peace is by learning to forgive my family and accept them as they are, annnnd to gradually start accepting that reality is what it is and living willfully or subconsciously in a deluded, fantasy reality just leads to your own downfall.

When in reality I am also continually trying to tell myself, at the same time, “Grow up, you big baby, anybody who told you you’d get all that stuff on a silver platter without having to work for it was seriously delusional and had dreams of grandeur.”...

Does anyone else ever have any problems with being told that something you are focused heavily on, or that is bothering you a lot (or something that seems like a HUGE deal to you) is "not really a big deal"? ...

I get upset over tend to be things that other people consider minute anyway...

where basically, I want to talk about EVERYTHING in every intricate detail, and have the other person respond to each teeny tiny detail in kind, and I want to talk about it (Twenty times if I want or need to) in order to get any emotions outta my system and cover all the details. I want to revisit it as many times as I feel I need to. I also seem to have a NEED for repetitiveness until I am ready to move away from it...

But... if someone does something that makes me mad or hurts my feelings, it seems like much of the time, (unless the person wants to co-ruminate with me), all they wanna do is clarify/defend their position once or twice, MAYBE they will give me an apology if they really feel bad or they just wanna make nice, but after that... they don't want to discuss it again. I'm sorry, but I guess I just don't get this...

Why do some people have the want or need to move on so quickly, after only discussing it once or twice or possibly even barely at all? Why don't people want to ruminate or co-ruminate at least a tad more? Why do some people find it so annoying to talk in circles or get repetitive, when to others it can be soothing or feel like the best way to connect on the planet?

I seriously think I have some entitlement issues...

I'm probably always going to be something of a brat...

I feel like I'm "owed" a lot due to opportunities I missed myself, or that the stupidity, ignorance or arrogance of others forced me to miss, sometimes out of carelessness, sometimes out of their own controlling or dismissive nature.


Maybe in some ways, I can't stand people seeing me as anything other than a shining angel, even if I have to delude myself sometimes into thinking they don't dislike me, because the reality is too harsh to accept and I seem to get so attached to people (or the idea of them) I admire too easily at times.

On top of that, have the power to edit other people's personalities, so that they can be more compatible with you...

Maybe in some areas... I don't want human friends, or I don't want interaction with humans, because they are unpredictable, argumentative, prone to moodiness, and they aren't available to be there for you whenever you want or need them like turning on a computer or picking up a good book... where you can just resume from the last spot where you left your bookmark. Nice, tidy, easy....

Honestly... I think that maybe these issues where I have been ignored at times, I have also ignored any number of issues during my entire childhood, well... maybe this gives me a sense of entitlement, because I feel like I'm "owed" a lot due to opportunities I missed myself, or that the stupidity, ignorance or arrogance of others forced me to miss, sometimes out of carelessness, sometimes out of their own controlling or dismissive nature.

Maybe in some ways, I can't stand people seeing me as anything other than a shining angel, even if I have to delude myself sometimes into thinking they don't dislike me, because the reality is too harsh to accept and I seem to get so attached to people (or the idea of them) I admire too easily at times.

I guess maybe I just feel like the rest of the world OWES it to me to just shut up and let me spill all of my thoughts and emotions while they remain quiet and receive it all, because I had to be quiet, be controlled, and do what I was supposed to be told for so long.

You seem to emote easily and have used a wide range of emotions

I am well aware of social norms and behave in socially appropriate ways...

I am self absorbed...

I know how to manipulate to get what I want...

My use of language is flat or robotic...

I am obsessed about certain subjects at the expense of others...

I was frequently invalidated as a child...

I am sensitive...

There is a desperate or hungry quality to me...

I have a constant desire to escape pain/reality...

I'm entitled to use people because... pain...

I feel resentment because I was wronged during childhood?...

I remember your emotions? Like, emotionally, why you did one thing or another, why you wanted one thing or another, after the fact?...

I have obsessive qualities...

I feel empty...

I have a weak sense of self...

I use other people to meet my needs...

I have needed others to strongly help support/supplement a variation of reality that I feel like I want/need...

I pretty much lived in books, games, TV shows and movies as a kid...

I got very, very daydreamy and concocted imaginary versions of characters to suit whatever I wanted or needed... and then I used those around me whenever I could, to help me support the fantasies and add substance to them if my own mind/imagination developed a mental block...

In a way... it's almost like I want other people to be my muse, to be my information machines to fuel my imagination, to be my... holodeck, to provide amusement and anything else I could want or need, and all I'd need is to walk in, have fun, and be pampered or entertained...

I just wanted... to fulfill fantasies, and I didn't want to cooperate with other people or compromise...

The worst part is that to this day, I am ashamed of my behavior and the best I can hope for is that those people don't remember me anymore (a lot of it was about a decade ago anyway) but at the same time, the more narcissistic side of me has privately resented them for a long time for not doing things my way when I wanted them done my way...

I have mind-blindness...

I over-analyze things...

I have a lot of anxiety...

I often experience depression...

I often experience frustration...

I can be rigid and inflexible...

I lack the desire for emotional interaction...

I have problems with change...

I've found I have latched onto people who remind me of my unstable/unpredictable parents in some way...

I have a dominating/predatory/conquering mindset...

I felt like I was in a constant war to keep my parents attention...

AS a child, my parents often forgot experiences they shared with me...

I have found that I seem to be sensitive to certain kinds of rejection...

I am a bit of a charmer around some people because they seem to like me straight-off sometimes, to the point where they act like they want to be friends, then when I show I want something out of them or I press something a bit too far, they kinda act like they just tolerate my presence. And kiiinda out of respect, once I realize I'm getting that vibe, I just stay away from them and don't try to interact because I don't like the "I don't want you around" vibe...

I seem to form connections way too fast with other types of people...

When I was growing up, my friends were younger than me...

Most of those friendships ended up turning sour when we no longer connected through mutual complaining or co-rumination, or sometimes if one or both of us did ONE thing wrong that set off a raw nerve at a critical moment, it's almost like the friendship was killed forever and any attempts to continue interacting was like trying to inflate a tire that already had a huge, gaping hole in it....

But since these are the people I'd spent soooo much time pouring out my heart and soul to, and vice versa... when the friendship ended, it felt like emotional divorce. It's like... that person was MINE. We never did anything physical, but it was like mental/emotional/spiritual connect. Then, like a passionate fire that burned bright and hot for a few months... nothing was left but dead embers, which quickly became dull ashes...

I also feel like others don't quite get me...

I try to subtly warn people upfront that I'm not the best person to be around. I'm kinda leechy and I can be cranky and such, and they either sympathize in some fashion or tell me flat-out they couldn't imagine me being a bad person. Then sometimes... depending on which facet or shade of my nature/personality happens to poke through at the wrong time, they seem to change their opinion of me rather suddenly...

I'm often frustrated that people don't just come out and say what they think. That lack of directness and transparency really bugs me. For me, it's almost the greatest sin not to say straight out what you think as plainly as possible...

All these secrets and things left unsaid... they bother me tremendously...

I would so much rather be abused in the vilest possible language then to have to endure someone's silent contempt or feigned interest. Or simply be ignored and passed over...

I often fail to notice important things about my friends or coworkers...

I sometimes find myself in relationships where each of us is oblivious to what the other is really like...

I dislike it when people mindread and make bad assumptions...
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

Do I contradict myself?
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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby sakura1 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:37 pm

Inside you if you have both ,how do you separate them?what do you think is because of bpd and what because of as?

But if 2 different things have same behaviors as result,i think the inside reasoning behind the behavior would be different.

For example if borderlines read others wrong is because they see threat and have emotional trust issues, but with aspergers do you see a threat? Or others more negative than what they are or you just didn't understand at all any
negative emotion from the other .
I have seen you getting upset irrationally to be honest.
But i don't know if it was worse because you didn't understand well what the other was thinking/theory of mind
or a compination with bpd that overreacts and gets upset easy.
There is no way i can understand what is it.maybe you can have some emotional trauma traits even if is not bpd that make the other worse for example.
I got interested because in the forum i can't understand when someone has it on my own.i would expect from what i have heard in movies etc that i could more.
when they mention it i can see traits maybe but i wonder how it is in real life.
Because there is a huge difference in someone understanding perfectly and just not caring,with someone that needs explanation in order to care.
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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby pamelaperejil » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:12 pm

sakura1 wrote:I have seen you getting upset irrationally to be honest.
But i don't know if it was worse because you didn't understand well what the other was thinking/theory of mind
or a compination with bpd that overreacts and gets upset easy.


I was probably just being a @@@@@@@.

To be clear: I'm not diagnosed with either. It's just that someone raised the question of Aspergers, so I thought I'd explore it.

'Cause I'm all about scientific inquiry.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby pamelaperejil » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:43 am

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 93 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 103 of 200
You seem to have both neurodiverse and neurotypical traits

At this point I'm wondering if I'm borderline at all. My dad has Asperger's, I'm fairly sure. My mom's bipolar. I'm wondering if maybe I'm such an atypical borderline because I'm not a borderline. I'm just the mess you get when you inherit genes that are 50% aspie, 50% bipolar, and then have an invalidating childhood while being raised by someone a parent with Asperger's and another with bipolar.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby pamelaperejil » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:09 am

Maybe my problems with identity/self aren't indicative of BPD but simply what happens when you try to piece together two things that don't really fit and can't be combined to make a coherent whole. Like trying to build something from licorice, fish sticks, and bicycle wheels. Maybe this is where my sense of Jekyll and Hyde comes from.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby Sjord » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:07 am

I have both, was diagnosed with aspergers a few years ago and BPD two years ago.
Do you have any chance of seeing a professional about it who can diagnose you?
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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby pamelaperejil » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:09 am

Sjord wrote:I have both, was diagnosed with aspergers a few years ago and BPD two years ago.
Do you have any chance of seeing a professional about it who can diagnose you?


I'm just barely getting insurance, but when that goes through... yes. It will take a while to get in, I guess.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you experience the combination of symptoms from those two?
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby Sjord » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:41 am

I hope you get answers soon.

Very difficult to tell what's what. In a few ways the diagnoses are similar, but in others very different. They can have the same symptoms, but in my case at least, it's more important to look at what causes the symptoms.

The combination is making treatment difficult. There are not many ordinary therapists that have enough knowledge of aspergers to treat a person with it. And the people working with aspergers are only focusing on problems relating to aspergers. (And for me, the people working with aspergers has shut the door completely too all available resources "because I'm too depressed, or whatever".)

I started DBT therapy a few weeks ago, but it's difficult with group and dealing with other people.

As for the symptoms, I don't really know, it's so much..
I have a lot of problems with relationships for example, but most of that seems to be the aspergers. I don't get people, I don't pick up social cues and I'm extremely anxious around people. So I don't have many BPD traits there, but there are many pwBPD who don't.
And as in many women, my aspergers doesn't express itself as the stereotype kind of aspergers.
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Re: BPD and autism spectrum

Postby pamelaperejil » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:46 am

Sjord wrote:So I don't have many BPD traits there, but there are many pwBPD who don't.
And as in many women, my aspergers doesn't express itself as the stereotype kind of aspergers.


That sounds right. So you're not a typical borderline and you're not a typical Aspie.

These are my borderline symptoms: I'm impulsive. I crush on people easily. I binge drink during times of stress. I get triggered when people ignore me. I need validation from others: I have difficulty soothing myself. I'm drawn to the dramatic/idiosyncratic and I'm perfectionistic (though perhaps that could be an aspie thing). I struggle with feelings of shame/that I'm an evil person, I feel things strongly, I have trouble making and enforcing boundaries.

These are my aspie symptoms: i'm socially inept. I don't respond to nonverbal cues. I can't read between the lines. I get upset if things aren't "just so", i have difficulty with empathy, I'm obsessive, I have trouble concentrating, esp. on other people, I can't tolerate socialization for any length of time, I'm asexual, androgynous (perhaps a trait of both?), I figit and pace, I'm obsessive, I daydream excessively, I can't recognize faces, other people fade into the background, I'm direct and tactless

Traits of both: i have emotional meltdowns and feel "different", I'm naive and idealistic, I trust the wrong people and am sometimes taken advantage of, I get bored easily
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
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