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Asperger vs. sociopathy

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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:05 am

HSS wrote:Fear induces you to build a wall; the label is one of the possible ways to do it. It's a subconscious security system. If you label someone as “bad”, you send a warning to your brain. It helps you to keep the distance.
We can be careful because we recognize that someone is dangerous, without judging him. If you think that someone is dangerous, it's more likely an objective, rational valuation.“Bad” is a word that children use, because it's an instinctive and primitive defense.
We have many tools to defend us; do not share info or increase aspects as carefulness, Self-awareness, autonomy, positive social relationships,... We don't need to do it through a label. I would expect this attitude from psychiatrists and psychologists.


Good way of putting it. I'm understanding you to say that applying morality ("bad") is ineffective.
Often, it is encouraged that people look at "bad"-ness as a lack of skills rather than morality, so you don't make decisions regardling the client based on fear or prejudice.

I can't speak positively of mental health professionals at this exact moment; however, the ones that know what they're doing speak adult-ego-state to adult-ego-state rather than parent-ego-state to child-ego-state.

I believe when people speak adult-to-adult / equal-to-equal, it's harder for there to be an overdose of morality and judgment applied.

I also agree that treating others as human beings is helpful whilst enabling or catering to individuals' false-selves (or the pedestal others have put them on) hurts them - even if they enjoy it.
That being said, I also know their choices are not my business (unless that's my job).

I think it may be the contrasting ability to have "charisma" etc. and ability to be engaging and "one-of" that draws out the moral judgements of others.
I don't think people can grasp both at once.
I guess that's primitive too.

Cluster-B's will be "bad" for the above mentioned reasons- and when it comes to high risk behaviours with individuals with Asperger's, it will more likely be seen as "dangerous without judging" the individuals.

I still believe the glamourization of the (to clarify: negative) qualities in cluster-b traits is a huge problem - and I still believe it's gotten exponentially worse that it's ever been in the last 100+ years of the developed world.

Ideally, we'd be glamorizing things like creative genius and the future of neuroplasticity - and building skills in everyone.

I think we go further and further into separation, isolation and disorder as time goes by.
Then again, I also wonder why I have so much emotional investment in this since I actually have a strong aversion to the very concepts that I think are important (community, family, the tribe, deep bonds/relationships with a network of people...)
Bitches Be Tripping. They're me - I'm Bitches.  ~ unknown
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby HSS » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:35 pm

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I believe when people speak adult-to-adult / equal-to-equal, it's harder for there to be an overdose of morality and judgment applied.


I think that I understand, but it's weird because I perceive it the opposite.
I mean that when you are an adult, you are considered more responsible for your behaviour, and by consequence judgment increases.
Btw I guess that you are mostly annoyed by the power that a doctor gains when he doesn't speak adult-to-adult. You lose credibility.

I think it may be the contrasting ability to have "charisma" etc. and ability to be engaging and "one-of" that draws out the moral judgements of others.
I don't think people can grasp both at once.
I guess that's primitive too.


Interesting, it's a new perspective for me, you are right.

I also agree that treating others as human beings is helpful whilst enabling or catering to individuals' false-selves (or the pedestal others have put them on) hurts them - even if they enjoy it.


Unfortunately, they don't enjoy just their positive charisma.
Someone likes his negative image, because it makes him feel powerful, and/or because he lacks self-empathy to understand and accept the “human” reasons under his behaviour.

Then, it looks like a war, but it's a social dance, and everyone is happy to dance his role.

Many people irrationally need to believe that someone is absolutely “bad”: one needs an incarnation for his demons, another one to satisfy his moral narcissism, someone else needs to feel he is a victim, so that he can avoid his power and responsibility.
AND the “bad ones” often like to imagine themselves as the “bad ones”. If they occasionally play an altruistic role, it's for others' use. For themselves they play a different show, where they are bad, and their fake Self-image make them feel important, respected, powerful and then, safe. Obviously it's not everyone's case, I am aware that there are different motivators.

I find it sad and unfair, but it goes like this, and to be honest I can't say that I never failed me too.
“Humor is reason gone mad."

“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:56 am

HSS wrote:I think that I understand, but it's weird because I perceive it the opposite.
I mean that when you are an adult, you are considered more responsible for your behaviour, and by consequence judgment increases.


I see it as:
If I said, "That was very bad / wrong of you! You are very irresponsible," etc. - it's like a parent reprimanding a child.

I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned, no one has the right to speak to me like that - and if they do, I'm certainly not going to take to heart the point they're trying to make. In fact, I may become resistant enough to go in the opposite direction.

Second of all, if people started addressing the issues in children and youth rather than sweeping them under the rug and/or enabling them, they'd be dealing with much lighter responsibilities and consequences (as opposed to waiting until they do something serious in adulthood).

To me, adult to adult (or equal to equal) is, "You've done this... These are the consequences..." or "This is what needs to change because..." "If you keep doing it, the following consequences will happen" "If you become willing to address these behaviors, these are the benefits for you.... and the benefits for others..."

HSS wrote:Btw I guess that you are mostly annoyed by the power that a doctor gains when he doesn't speak adult-to-adult. You lose credibility.


I find it insulting.
I guess I lose credibility in the sense that I'm treated as incompetent when I'm fully competent.

I got rid of the last shrink who spoke to me like that, but my therapist is really over the top worried and fixated on diagnoses that involve psychosis (more so than my current shrink).
She also pushes that I go on meds more than my current psychiatrist.

I mention almost having had psychosis symptoms (not an episode - only symptoms) due to depression about a month ago and suddenly she's suggesting I go get antipsychotics when I've been clear that I will not take them.

The next thing she thinks is upping my mood stabilizer because my levels are a tad low.

Well ###$, they've been low for two years now and I've not had any racing thoughts or anything.
Why the ###$ would I go up on a drug that makes me brain dead when it's serving it's purpose just fine?

Then she pushed the idea of an increase in antidepressant and I didn't even know what to think, so I agreed to consult with shrink next time I see him. 

She and most shrinks are resistant in hearing anything atypical as well (current psychiatrist isn't bad with that - which is why I requested him).

I used to be on two antipsychotics together and still got psychosis.
-- I went off my antipsychotics due to side effects and frustration and went on an antidepressant, and the psychosis went away.
-- I don't get why they want to go straight to the hardcore psychmeds right away.

If we were speaking adult to adult, I'd be respected as competent. I have that right.
I've only had one full-on break from reality back when I was 19-ish anyways, so it's not like I'm constantly going off the deep end either.

I normally adore her, but this pisses me off.
I can take care of myself just fine.
There have been many years where I had no support for my mental health and I'm still here.

HSS wrote:Many people irrationally need to believe that someone is absolutely “bad”: one needs an incarnation for his demons, another one to satisfy his moral narcissism, someone else needs to feel he is a victim, so that he can avoid his power and responsibility.


I don't fully understand this

HSS wrote:I find it sad and unfair, but it goes like this, and to be honest I can't say that I never failed me too.


I agree this topic is sad and unfair.

You're referring to yourself when you write "I can't say that I never failed me too."?
Bitches Be Tripping. They're me - I'm Bitches.  ~ unknown
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby HSS » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:26 pm

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I see it as:
If I said, "That was very bad / wrong of you! You are very irresponsible," etc. - it's like a parent reprimanding a child.

I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned, no one has the right to speak to me like that - and if they do, I'm certainly not going to take to heart the point they're trying to make. In fact, I may become resistant enough to go in the opposite direction.

Second of all, if people started addressing the issues in children and youth rather than sweeping them under the rug and/or enabling them, they'd be dealing with much lighter responsibilities and consequences (as opposed to waiting until they do something serious in adulthood).

To me, adult to adult (or equal to equal) is, "You've done this... These are the consequences..." or "This is what needs to change because..." "If you keep doing it, the following consequences will happen" "If you become willing to address these behaviors, these are the benefits for you.... and the benefits for others..."

I find it insulting.
I guess I lose credibility in the sense that I'm treated as incompetent when I'm fully competent.

I got rid of the last shrink who spoke to me like that, but my therapist is really over the top worried and fixated on diagnoses that involve psychosis (more so than my current shrink).
She also pushes that I go on meds more than my current psychiatrist.

I mention almost having had psychosis symptoms (not an episode - only symptoms) due to depression about a month ago and suddenly she's suggesting I go get antipsychotics when I've been clear that I will not take them.

The next thing she thinks is upping my mood stabilizer because my levels are a tad low.

Well ###$, they've been low for two years now and I've not had any racing thoughts or anything.
Why the ###$ would I go up on a drug that makes me brain dead when it's serving it's purpose just fine?

Then she pushed the idea of an increase in antidepressant and I didn't even know what to think, so I agreed to consult with shrink next time I see him. 

She and most shrinks are resistant in hearing anything atypical as well (current psychiatrist isn't bad with that - which is why I requested him).

I used to be on two antipsychotics together and still got psychosis.
-- I went off my antipsychotics due to side effects and frustration and went on an antidepressant, and the psychosis went away.
-- I don't get why they want to go straight to the hardcore psychmeds right away.

If we were speaking adult to adult, I'd be respected as competent. I have that right.
I've only had one full-on break from reality back when I was 19-ish anyways, so it's not like I'm constantly going off the deep end either.

I normally adore her, but this pisses me off.
I can take care of myself just fine.
There have been many years where I had no support for my mental health and I'm still here.


It's clear. I would feel the same.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:
HSS wrote:Many people irrationally need to believe that someone is absolutely “bad”: one needs an incarnation for his demons, another one to satisfy his moral narcissism, someone else needs to feel he is a victim, so that he can avoid his power and responsibility.


I don't fully understand this


It's just a schematic example of some “human types”.

The first person is constitutionally afraid; he imagines demons, and doesn't realize that the problem is his mind, that is creating scaring monsters for some inner angst. Maybe it would be more terrifying to understand it. Then he filters reality through his fears and loses objectivity.

The second person needs to feel that he is morally superior to everything else. He talks about empathy, love and so on with a competitive goal, to show that he's better than others. Obviously, it's the opposite of an authentic empathy. If someone behaves badly, the second person won't try to understand him deeper, because the other's behaviour is used to confirm her “goodness”.

The self-pitying person subconsciously fears his power, by consequence he can't recognize that he has an active role in negative events of his life. He needs a “bad person”, because he needs that someone else is responsible for his problems.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:You're referring to yourself when you write "I can't say that I never failed me too."?


Yes. I did it, and I occasionally do it. It depends on how much I am hurt, and how much I am experiencing authentic self-esteem and strength. There are moments when I am badly hurt and haven't self-esteem enough, then it becomes difficult to stay lucid, to observe the other one deeply and objectively.
“Humor is reason gone mad."

“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
HSS
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:26 am

HSS wrote:It's just a schematic example of some “human types”.

The first person is constitutionally afraid; he imagines demons, and doesn't realize that the problem is his mind, that is creating scaring monsters for some inner angst. Maybe it would be more terrifying to understand it. Then he filters reality through his fears and loses objectivity.

The second person needs to feel that he is morally superior to everything else. He talks about empathy, love and so on with a competitive goal, to show that he's better than others. Obviously, it's the opposite of an authentic empathy. If someone behaves badly, the second person won't try to understand him deeper, because the other's behaviour is used to confirm her “goodness”.

The self-pitying person subconsciously fears his power, by consequence he can't recognize that he has an active role in negative events of his life. He needs a “bad person”, because he needs that someone else is responsible for his problems.


Again, very good way of putting it

I meant to add this to my last reply because it sounds like something you may find interesting (I've posted it elsewhere last year, so it may be a repeat):

It's a PDF link to Eric Berne's very short book Games People Play.

It's an old book 1960's or 70's, but it illustrates the concept of "games" (transactions comprised of social strokes) and the ego states I mentioned.

http://rrt2.neostrada.pl/mioduszewska/c ... ding_3.pdf

HSS wrote: Yes. I did it, and I occasionally do it. It depends on how much I am hurt, and how much I am experiencing authentic self-esteem and strength. There are moments when I am badly hurt and haven't self-esteem enough, then it becomes difficult to stay lucid, to observe the other one deeply and objectively.


I find this a very accurate depiction of authentic self-esteem.
It's not as common as people think for it to be a fixed quality and it definitely relates to being hurt.
"The other one" < An aspect of yourself or another person you're interacting with?
Bitches Be Tripping. They're me - I'm Bitches.  ~ unknown
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby HSS » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:13 pm

Thank you. I will read it, a little at a time.
“Humor is reason gone mad."

“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
HSS
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