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Asperger vs. sociopathy

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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby Squaredonutwheels » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:04 pm

Interesting thread. I wonder if I'm an aspie all along and I've been researching the wrong forum (AsPD).
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby shock_the_monkey » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:44 pm

this is well worth a watch ...
Psychopaths (Crime Psychology Documentary) - Real Stories
... as to "can we hold psychopaths accountable for their behaviour if it's innate?", i unequivocally say yes. otherwise, there will be no checks and balances within society, and ultimately no society at all.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby KitMcDaydream » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:14 am

Pathological Demand Avoidance maybe another thing to consider. Now recognised by autism specialist as a sub type of Autism and includes the person having a manipulative personality and been charming on a shallow level in order to get (or get out of) doing what they want (or don't want to do).

The result being the person may appear to display features closer to sociopathy than people with 'classic autism' or Asperger's. The also don't generally have the same level of learning disability and appear more 'socially able' even as kids.
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby HSS » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:00 pm

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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:51 pm

Being a Cluster B is in style right now, so there's a ton if information on it available, but then again, maybe there wasn't when this post was written almost 10 years ago.

Redundant as the same topics are getting, I'm bored so here's more information

The following compares and contrasts some of the similarities between autism spectrum and antisocial traits.

"Autism Spectrum Disorders and Psychopathy: Clinical and Criminal Justice Considerations" abstract and downloadable PDF in link below

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/A ... ef21b549c9

I don't know how to credit this because it's all over Google, but look at how incredible this is:

Sociopathy would be neurotypical, or if misdiagnosed, the psychopathic one.

The Aspergers/ASD Spectrum is neuroscience's bridge towards embracing the brain's untapped potential in neuroplasticity and genius as a mind (rather than a biological computer = Psychopathy, but I'm certain both have their uses).

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby HSS » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:30 pm

Thank you for your info.

I am doubtful about co-morbidity. As you show, neurological asset is very different; I don't understand how someone may have both an asperger and psychopathic brain. Moreover, I am confused if aspergers are or aren't able to lie. I read contradictory theories. Maybe someone here will clarify.

However, authors seem to be involved with autism and my feeling is that the paper is accurate about Asd.

I am not an expert, but not sure if it's the same for psychopathy. When they write that deterrence is likewise difficult to achieve with an ASD offender, I guess it's the same with a psychopathic offender.

And:
“psychopathic individuals have the ability to understand the thoughts of others [...]; however, they consciously choose not to express this recognition on an affective level.”


I can be wrong, but it sounds a misunderstanding to think it's a conscious choice. It seems quite the opposite: they spontaneously don't care and need a conscious effort to experience emotional empathy.

Ps

"Sociopathy would be neurotypical, or if misdiagnosed, the psychopathic one": do you mean that psychopathy doesn't exist, and it's always Aspd?
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:39 pm

I was adding to the topic in general because a lot people act like asperger's and the autism spectrum are negative things without realizing the vast potential and gifts within it.

HSS wrote:Thank you for your info.

I am doubtful about co-morbidity. As you show, neurological asset is very different; I don't understand how someone may have both an asperger and psychopathic brain.


I haven't properly read the paper since last fall when I was looking for differences and similarities between AsPD and Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD).

They defined autism spectrum disorder but they've done a poor job highlighting how they define psychopathy.
^
Maybe the paper is using Hare's checklist for characteristics rather than examining brain scans.
The photos I included aren't connected to the research article.

The paper concluded occassional overlap of characteristics between the disorders:

"... while those on the autism spectrum may at times exhibit features associated with psychopathy, this overlap should not be treated as an invariable co-morbidity."

HSS wrote:Moreover, I am confused if aspergers are or aren't able to lie. I read contradictory theories.


I'm also not an expert, but the people on the spectrum that I know and have worked with, can lie provided they understand that it's necessary - otherwise they can't really be bothered to lie.
I'm the same way to be honest.

HSS wrote:"Sociopathy would be neurotypical, or if misdiagnosed, the psychopathic one": do you mean that psychopathy doesn't exist, and it's always Aspd?


I was trying to say that a sociopathic brain would look neurotypical rather than appearing like a psychopathic brain because they're not seen as the same thing from a brain development perspective.

I also think due to the lack of understanding and resources within the justice systems, a high functioning person on the aspergers/ASD spectrum could certainly be misdiagnosed as a sociopath/psychopath too. As can people with certain types of Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder
^
Which is unfortunate given the negativity around the AsPD umbrella
^
Criminal justice system is the only place where that umbrella isn't a trendy/desirable thing to be
They collect information to stock pile in their souls, saying, "I will tuck this into my subconscious for later use." ~ unknown
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby HSS » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:14 pm

Yes.

I agree with authors that aspergers and psychopaths seem opposite (hypersensitive vs. apparently insensitive), and I share their defence of Asd offenders.

I am sceptical about their implicit idea that we have to distinguish them from aspd, because the latest are the “bad” ones. At least, I perceive it that way.

A criminal, who is aware that he's breaking law, is legally responsible; it's a different question to label him as “wrong” or “bad”.

In my experience, that label is the projection of a defensive attitude or a misunderstanding.
While it's legit to defend our vulnerability, it would be better to do it consciously, even more if professionals.

Where this kind of psychology fails at my eyes, it's that it doesn't “observe” the observer, the psychologist (even if it states the opposite).

These labels are a description of the observer's emotional response, but they value them as objective aspect of other's mind.

Everyone is “bad” (or “crazy”) when you don't understand him.
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:44 am

I chose the paper because I liked how it outlined the differences as a generalized answer to the OP.
Same with the images.

HSS wrote:I am sceptical about their implicit idea that we have to distinguish them from aspd, because the latest are the “bad” ones. At least, I perceive it that way.

A criminal, who is aware that he's breaking law, is legally responsible; it's a different question to label him as “wrong” or “bad”.


The justice system is about (or pretends to be about) restitution and rehabilitation.

In relation to that, the differences between the disorders make the difference between whether or not rehabilitate is likely or possible.
That would be one reason why it's important to them.

Restitution and rehabilitation is exactly the way it should be.

However, it's not - and that's exactly the reason why the two differences matter to criminal justice system.

They're not going to bother putting effort into the rehabilitation of people with aspd and psychopathic brains.
^^^
Too much work; too many changes they'd have to make - and too much responsibility society would have to take for contributing to or the creating of the scapegoats society often loves to hate.

HSS wrote: In my experience, that label is the projection of a defensive attitude or a misunderstanding.


I'm curious what an example of your experience of that would be.

 
HSS wrote: While it's legit to defend our vulnerability, it would be better to do it consciously, even more if professionals.


I don't understand.

 
HSS wrote: Where'dl this kind of psychology fails at my eyes, it's that it doesn't “observe” the observer, the psychologist (even if it states the opposite).


True. I've met ones who are too ###$ up to be in such positions of authority

Currently, my greatest issue with it is that everything is on such a broad spectrum almost anybody qualifies for a mental illness.

When they meet a person that the psychiatric diagnosis was intended for, people just brush off the severity and don't understand why the person is experiencing debilitating symptoms.

Depression, anxiety, PTSD, personality disorders (at least bpd), and the ASD spectrum.

I was reading in one of my psychology classes that the reason ASD spectrum diagnoses have gone up drastically is because they've widened the qualifications.
Higher / more severe end of the spectrum numbers haven't really changed.

That being said, labels can have their purpose when it comes to treatment approaches / therapeutic interventions - and coding for financial coverage via disability, etc.
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby HSS » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:28 pm

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I chose the paper because I liked how it outlined the differences as a generalized answer to the OP.
Same with the images.


Yeah, that's clear :)

The justice system is about (or pretends to be about) restitution and rehabilitation.

In relation to that, the differences between the disorders make the difference between whether or not rehabilitate is likely or possible.
That would be one reason why it's important to them.

Restitution and rehabilitation is exactly the way it should be.

However, it's not - and that's exactly the reason why the two differences matter to criminal justice system.

They're not going to bother putting effort into the rehabilitation of people with aspd and psychopathic brains.
^^^
Too much work; too many changes they'd have to make - and too much responsibility society would have to take for contributing to or the creating of the scapegoats society often loves to hate.


Agreed.

I'm curious what an example of your experience of that would be.


You see it daily...

For example, when I was a teenager I considered the class bully a malignant person, but I misunderstood him, at least partially. “Bad” refers to a superficial level, and I didn't know him deeper.

One day, a teacher placed him next to me.
He asked my help for the lesson and I discovered that he wasn't very clever. It wasn't a problem for me, I was just a little surprised, but I think he wished to hide these difficulties. He also had a different behaviour when we were alone; we got talking, and he didn't feel the need to play the “leader” or the “enemy” privately, he was spontaneous. He shared some personal info with me, and my classmates were envious. They admired him, and misunderstood him. They believed him a “god”, I believed him a “devil”. We were wrong both. He wasn't so strong. Not that he was that weak, but he was quite a dull boy, without any discernible quality. Maybe that's why he wished to impression.

Now: one day, we were arguing for something; a classmate, that was assisting, incited him to beat me. He was bigger and older than me, then I was ready to a painful moment. He looked at me... and he refused. I was safe, and surprised, because I thought he hated me. I still find a mystery that behaviour, but I suspect that his hostility was a show for our classmates too. You wrote that being Cluster B is in style right now, it already was. I was a naive child; maybe that's because he was spontaneous when we were alone, as I didn't pretend him to satisfy some ideas of charisma, coolness, cleverness, I respected him the same. But I assume he felt under pressure with our class. After the school ended, he started to say “hello” first, if we met on the street. When we were schoolmates, he never said “hello”... I guess it was a question of social dynamics. He wished to be “someone” important, and the way he found, was to be the bad leader.

I don't understand.


Fear induces you to build a wall; the label is one of the possible ways to do it. It's a subconscious security system. If you label someone as “bad”, you send a warning to your brain. It helps you to keep the distance.
We can be careful because we recognize that someone is dangerous, without judging him. If you think that someone is dangerous, it's more likely an objective, rational valuation.“Bad” is a word that children use, because it's an instinctive and primitive defense.
We have many tools to defend us; do not share info or increase aspects as carefulness, Self-awareness, autonomy, positive social relationships,... We don't need to do it through a label. I would expect this attitude from psychiatrists and psychologists.

That being said, labels can have their purpose when it comes to treatment approaches / therapeutic interventions - and coding for financial coverage via disability, etc.


Ok.
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