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Asperger vs. sociopathy

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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby Sh3ld0n » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:12 pm

anagram wrote:Yes... The only way to win an argument over something that in practice makes little to no difference to you is by not participating in it. It took me a long time to realize this, and I still forget it sometimes.


Reminds me of the movie: "War Games"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames

"The computer concludes that nuclear warfare is "a strange game"; having discovered the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction ("WINNER: NONE"), therefore "the only winning move is not to play." Joshua then offers to play "a nice game of chess", and relinquishes control of NORAD and the missiles."

Sometimes one simply has to walk away...

I have my own saying in regards to (logical) recalcitrants:
You can take a wombat to logic...
But you can't make it think... :mrgreen:

NTs are often more concerned about the emotional content such as "one-up-man-ship"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-upmanship
...rather than "argue" on an intellectual/logical platform...

And many then tend to play the man rather than the ball when they start to lose... :roll:

I have another saying:
You can't reason with unreasonable people...
And then there is the classic:
Life is too short of this nonsense...

It took me a very long time to accept the above principles, but eventually it sunk-ted in... ;)
**********************
The implied qualifier is probably "tendency" if not otherwise stated...
I don't generalise in the classic sense...
My default MO is to think in terms of probabilities/improbabilities...
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby ThereWillBePeace » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:27 pm

TDT wrote:This is having an insensitive and cruel behavior toward the feelings of others. ASers don't pick up on other people's feelings very easily, and therefore may act as if they are insensitive toward their feelings. It's not like the person with AS knows what someone feels and immediately is trying to be cruel back. If enough stuff builds up, someone with AS may not care about another person's feelings, but that's likely due to stress like anything else.


I'm not sure about this. I had an experience with my nephew the other day wherein he attempted to feign interest in something I like in order to get something he wanted. This appeared to be a "long game" he was playing too. It went on for about an hour and a half. He does stuff like this all the time, which means that he is at least partially aware of what he is doing, because it requires a complex strategy and patience - neither of which most teenagers have. Literally seconds after his final words in his multi-tiered strategy (complimenting me on something I had made), he "went for the kill"; "Ehhh....Can I get back on the computer now?"

Whether or not his intention was to be cruel or to hurt feelings, this still exhibits social manipulative behavior which demonstrates at least partial awareness of what he is doing. In order to manipulate someone, you have to have some knowledge of what you are doing, if only to carry out your goal.

Per the example of not being sensitive to other's feelings, I can agree with that in the context if a person is crying, and an Aspie doesn't ask them if they are okay. But if said Aspie sat down next to said crying person, comforted them, and after gaining their trust, said, "By the way....can I have 5 dollars?", that is a bit different, in my view.
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby Sh3ld0n » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:33 pm

ThereWillBePeace wrote:
TDT wrote:This is having an insensitive and cruel behavior toward the feelings of others. ASers don't pick up on other people's feelings very easily, and therefore may act as if they are insensitive toward their feelings. It's not like the person with AS knows what someone feels and immediately is trying to be cruel back. If enough stuff builds up, someone with AS may not care about another person's feelings, but that's likely due to stress like anything else.


I'm not sure about this. I had an experience with my nephew the other day wherein he attempted to feign interest in something I like in order to get something he wanted. This appeared to be a "long game" he was playing too. It went on for about an hour and a half. He does stuff like this all the time, which means that he is at least partially aware of what he is doing, because it requires a complex strategy and patience - neither of which most teenagers have. Literally seconds after his final words in his multi-tiered strategy (complimenting me on something I had made), he "went for the kill"; "Ehhh....Can I get back on the computer now?"

Whether or not his intention was to be cruel or to hurt feelings, this still exhibits social manipulative behavior which demonstrates at least partial awareness of what he is doing. In order to manipulate someone, you have to have some knowledge of what you are doing, if only to carry out your goal.

Per the example of not being sensitive to other's feelings, I can agree with that in the context if a person is crying, and an Aspie doesn't ask them if they are okay. But if said Aspie sat down next to said crying person, comforted them, and after gaining their trust, said, "By the way....can I have 5 dollars?", that is a bit different, in my view.


Apples and oranges... :wink:

The person you were responding to was using a general context.
You were using a specific example.

To be fair, you need to respond using the context initially provide...
Or, you need to acknowledge you are changing the context and accept you are going off on a tangent.

Simples... :mrgreen:
**********************
The implied qualifier is probably "tendency" if not otherwise stated...
I don't generalise in the classic sense...
My default MO is to think in terms of probabilities/improbabilities...
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby ebeast » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:21 pm

The whole issue of Asperger's and Sociopaths gets even more complex when one brings in the possible equation with or relation to psychopaths. According to Dr. Robert Hare, who has researched and published on sociopathology and psychopathology for decades (a rather better source than Wikipedia for a serious discussion of the matter) a "psychopath" and "sociopath" are one and the same in terms of core personality and behavior. The only reason for the use of separate terms is on the basis of postulated etiology. Psychologists tend to focus on genetic and (non social) environmental factors as the causes while sociologists, criminologists, and other "social scientists" emphasize broadly prevailing social factors as central in etiology.

I can use myself as an example of an Asperger's Syndrome person who has indications of sociopathology (or psychopathology if one prefers this term). I find it difficult to form relationships and am uncomfortable in social situations, lacking the "normal" empathy for others that greases the conversational wheels. I don't get what the concept of a "tragedy" is, for example, in a broad sense. Yes of course I understand that someone who lost family or friends in a plane crash will be sad, but if all the victims are strangers, how does that bother anybody? Objectively, I realize that it does bother most people in some way, based on comments I see and hear, but I can't get my own mind around this emotionally since these things don't register for me. It is primarily my regard for an objective moral law (a la Kant) that keeps me from acting in overtly antisocial ways most of the time.
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby Sh3ld0n » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:53 am

@ ebeast

Great post...
Post more...
**********************
The implied qualifier is probably "tendency" if not otherwise stated...
I don't generalise in the classic sense...
My default MO is to think in terms of probabilities/improbabilities...
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby Ronaboat123 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:19 pm

Having read what WATTA said I could have been sure they were speaking of my ex-boyfriend. He has never been diagnosed and I have struggled for 12 years to understand if he has ASD or is a sociopath but tend to feel he’s both. His “learned” behavior (he’s 52) has masked a lot of “symptoms” of either condition so I am fascinated to try to understand why I put up with SO much emotional and financial grief in our relationship and supported him just like his ex-wife and previous partners .. and his current partner.
Short of having him spend the money and time to be properly diagnosed... he’s so charming and complicated it would take a really long time, in my opinion, by a very accomplished psychologist or psychiatrist to come to a conclusion. It also took me a long time to discover how “impressionable” (or “accomplished”?) he is at blending in with other groups. It was only when he started working as a freelancer did I notice his whole vernacular, behavior, mannerisms and “tone” could change completely when around a different set of colleagues. This is hard to explain. I only knew him as he related to me and all MY social/work setting because he was pretty much a loner and from another town but as I observed him after working on a movie set for a period of time with a very different set of people I would observe that he came home acting and sounding very different at first. Then he’s slip back to what I considered “ his old self”. Lately, when he finally made some male friends (he has predominantly surrounded himself with women friends and was a “house husband” looking after his 5 children for 17yrs before I knew him) ) I noticed how he would change when speaking to “one of the guys” on the phone. It was this that helped me figure out I couldn’t really know who he actually was ... but it fit with the ASD syndrome of “learned behavior” and his attempts/ability to fit in.
I can empathize with WATTA in regard to how to proceed with their relationship with their father. I agonized for years whether or not to keep giving my ex “chances” because I’d have felt differently had I known he was sociopathic rather than being ASpie. I paid all the bills, helped him get film work, curtailed my social life since he didn’t have any money to go out and I put up with his flagrant “flirting” and rekindled old relationships....as has the women in his life before me...He has an MO of “dating” an older, financially stable woman and spending great chunks of time supported in her home ... be it just when visiting a town or “old friends” who he’d “look up” only when he neeed somewhere to stay.. He also forms liaisons with younger women at work that border on affairs. He’s admitted to me he may never have the capacity to really “love” someone and we’ve had years of deep conversations about his actions and thoughts but nothing ever changes. I still love and care about him (as do most of the women in his life) but I’m left desperately trying to determine if I spent 15 years (still friends but was in love for 12 years ) with a sociopath or an ASpie ...or BOTH.
On the compulsive lying front ... he wouldn’t lie BUT he would need to have an extremely specific question put to him to actually tell the truth. I learned the hard way that something generic like “are you sleeping together” for example might be answered by “no” whereas it would turn out he’z Seen this woman several times, stayed at her house and may of may not have had sex”. He was also ace at “misdirection” where I would be convinced of something from what he’d implied only to discover I was wrong. The best example of this would be that I’d somehow be thinking he was in one town when he actually was seeing someone in another town!! I would call it his “failure by omission”. He didn’t “lie” but he left out often the most important detail that would completely change an answer or situation.
Otherwise, he fit all the classic symptoms of Aspergers but I often wondered if he cunningly displayed them to cover sociopathic behavior.
I welcome other responses to help me understand further.
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby shock_the_monkey » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:15 pm

i think my advice remains the same: you should take people as you find them. trying to psychoanalyse them can often only leave you running around in circles. and my experience has certainly been that making allowances for other peoples' mental health issues only lead to compromising your own. i'll add that i'm a consequentialist. if nothing else, it saves a hell of a lot of second guessing of other peoples' motives.

nevertheless, aspies don't tend to be disrespect of other people. they're more neutral than negative, or sociopathic. also, they don't play games. that's the reserve of narcissists. i leave you to draw your own conclusions here.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby Ronaboat123 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:32 pm

Thanks for your comments. I only highlighted my concerns and his negative aspects. His children LOVE him, he IS considerate in most situations, is gentle, good company and enjoys cooking all the meals.
I understand what you’re saying and I didn’t try to analyze him for years but got “worn down” but by then I was totally in love with him.
I just think it’s an important discussion in order to try to help others who might be very confused by some of the similarities in these two conditions. He’s got the professorial intelligence, fixation on one main topic (work and searching for it), OCD, bouncy gait but he has an intoxicating stare rather than not being able to look someone in the eye. In fact, that’s how we first met on a set... we’d stare at each other across the room before we ever spoke. He drinks people in with his countenance and then is surprised when women instantly “fall” for him and a distinct lack of empathy. These are just a few observations of his traits, of course, but I agree that it’s up to every individual to accept or reject what isn’t working for them. He’s GREAT at doing that. Perhaps that’s an ASpie thing. Problem is when you love and care for someone deeply it’s not easy to do!!
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby shock_the_monkey » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:55 am

there's a difference between love and co-dependence. and, perhaps, viewed subjectively, co-dependence could well look like a psychological flaw, such a sociopathy, in the person upon whom one is seeking to be co-dependent. love is a much misused term. and, candidly, what you describe doesn't sound too much like love to me. now, i'm sure that sounds quite harsh. possibly it is. but your desire to put your dissatisfaction down to some defect in your ex-boyfriend's mental health sounds rather like an excuse to avoid the real issue. and that, i suspect, is that you want to love him but you can't. you have a notion of love that he doesn't measure up to. in other words, you're blaming him for failing to live up to your expectations rather than taking responsibility for finding someone who would or, better still, learning not to have such expectations and be co-dependent. i'll admit that there's a bit of this in all of us. it's when we don't recognise it for what it really is, which is a childish desire to be protected from the reality of adult life, that it can really cause us serious problems.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
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Re: Asperger vs. sociopathy

Postby shock_the_monkey » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:01 am

having mulled this over, i think my life experience, especially as a male aspie, has lead me to the conclusion that the only certainty, and therefore security, exists in independence. as a social species, that does appear to be rather ironic.

my suspicion is that women are more inter-dependent than men, and when they adopt this with men, rather than other women, inevitably something is missing. it's not that men aren't interdependent, it's that they don't allow their wellbeing to depend on it. and in a world that seems to me to be becoming more and more impersonal, it's women that are suffering most, partly through their own desire to compete with men. and the myth that all you need is one fulfilling relationship doesn't help.

put more succinctly, if you fish around for a reason for your unhappiness, try not to pin it on just one person. it's likely to be much more complex than that.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
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