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Fragile concept of other people?

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Fragile concept of other people?

Postby Lumawo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:43 pm

I've noticed something over time. I never used to have trouble relating to other people (in the sense that I understood how they felt and why), but the more I think about it the less "real" it seems. Like I can think "what does this person feel" or "how do I look (to someone else)" but the more I think about it the less I really believe it.

Does that make sense to anyone?
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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby shock_the_monkey » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:27 pm

give that aspies have poor theory of mind, why as you asking this on an AS forum?
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don't like it but i guess i'm learning

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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby iabsurdlyexist » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:42 pm

I've seen this come up a lot and my take is that those with Autism struggle because their mind is different. It's why Schizophrenics also have the theory of mind issue. How do you truly understand NT's if your mind works differently?

For me, I do understand what others think and feel based on my own perceptions. My perceptions are right according to how my mind would react. Of course they will be wrong in another's mind who thinks differently. It then means that my understanding for another Autistic should be just as good from one NT to another.

I guess I am just struggling as to why this is a thing. It just seems like an obvious outcome.
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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby Lumawo » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:25 pm

shock_the_monkey wrote:give that aspies have poor theory of mind, why as you asking this on an AS forum?


Why? Because it wasn't like this for me before, so I'm wondering if this is typical for AS.

And it's becoming a problem, because now I'm starting to question literally everything in my life because of this.

Like literally, if I think too much about it I don't understand that anyone is reading this. It's that bad.
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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby pamelaperejil » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:07 pm

Lumawo wrote:Does that make sense to anyone?


Yes.

Pulled from another thread, on the subject of 'mind reading'. (Obviously there are also good things associated with Theory of Mind as well, namely empathy, compassion, remorse...):

I doubt there's a clear distinction between mind reading and say, emotional intelligence/empathy/social awareness.

For me, the thing becomes a problem when a person engages in idle and/or largely unfounded speculation at another's expense and presents that speculation as fact instead of the opinion that it is. Especially when that speculation reflects negatively on/smears someone, especially when that speculation serves to distract from/sidestep a larger argument or criticism against the speculator (in other words, when used as ad hominem diversion), especially when the speculator refuses to back up his/her opinion with any evidence (simply asserting that something is self evidently true or true because they say so), especially when the accusations being levied (or insinuated) seem to attack the target or pin them up against a wall, forcing them to justify or explain their own private mental processes in order to 'clear their name' (in other words, as an intrusion into someone's mental privacy or headspace), especially when the speculator seems unpersuadable on the point (for example, if they continue insisting a thing is true no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary), and especially when the accusations being levied against the target are unfalsifiable. Under those circumstances, especially, mind reading (or what I'm calling 'mind reading') seems in particularly bad form.

These are comments I've made elsewhere:

(from 'Are ASPD stupid' thread)
...He asked a question, I answered it. His motivations for asking it (whatever they may be) are his own business, I think. I try to avoid playing mind reading games, assigning desires and motives to other people that they haven't owned for themselves. I think it's bad form...

(From the 'Inhibitions' thread)
I've never claimed it's absolutely wrong to mindread or make inferences about what another person is thinking. It's true that sometimes people are self deceived or downright dishonest. It's also true that in that case it's nearly impossible to prove someone is misrepresenting themselves or being dishonest. It would be profoundly silly to keep extending someone behaving suspiciously the benefit of the doubt simply because their ignorance or dishonesty can't be absolutely proven against them...
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby pamelaperejil » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:29 am

The above post might be slightly misleading. I didn't mean to imply that Theory of Mind was bad. I'm only trying to emphasize the danger of guessing and getting it wrong, and the frustration of misunderstanding or being misunderstood. I've always felt that my comparative reluctance to try to read other's minds was a largely a good thing, and that their (from my point of view) over-eagerness to try to read mine was bad. I've often wondered why more people don't insist on spelling things out rather than making assumptions. It's one of my pet peeves. Taking into account a possible ASD diagnosis, this makes more sense.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby Lumawo » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:56 pm

pamelaperejil wrote:The above post might be slightly misleading. I didn't mean to imply that Theory of Mind was bad. I'm only trying to emphasize the danger of guessing and getting it wrong, and the frustration of misunderstanding or being misunderstood. I've always felt that my comparative reluctance to try to read other's minds was a largely a good thing, and that their (from my point of view) over-eagerness to try to read mine was bad. I've often wondered why more people don't insist on spelling things out rather than making assumptions. It's one of my pet peeves. Taking into account a possible ASD diagnosis, this makes more sense.


I think I get what you're saying and I think my problem is related to this but in a different way. You talk about making assumptions, I think I always made assumptions about the thoughts of other people,and not reflected on it. So when I started reflecting on it it started feeling less real, like "these thoughts actually exist inside someone's head". Like I don't actually believe it.
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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby Lumawo » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:46 pm

Actually come to think of it, as long as I can remember I worried a lot what people would think that of me, but other than that I was extremely "in my own world", like life was a movie. Is that typical for ASD?
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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby pamelaperejil » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:19 pm

Lumawo wrote:Actually come to think of it, as long as I can remember I worried a lot what people would think that of me, but other than that I was extremely "in my own world", like life was a movie. Is that typical for ASD?


Think so.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Re: Fragile concept of other people?

Postby Lumawo » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:46 pm

It actually helps knowing this isn't that uncommon. I actually found a quote on another forum that describes exactly how I feel:

"Life is so distracting that I don't question everything all the time - but the more I think about it, the less I can understand that anyone but me can be real, or be as 'aware' as me - if that makes sense. Maybe some severe lack of empathy? I know these thoughts are #######4, but it just boggles my mind sometimes - how anyone can not be me- or feel what I feel, or even feel at all"
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