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The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

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The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby shock_the_monkey » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:37 am

The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria

... i'd honestly have to say this was quite an eye-opener, even for me. well worth a read, especially if you're of an optimistic persuasion. i thought the insight about the way NTs invalidate aspies was very revealing, and possibly all too true.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby pamelaperejil » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:09 am

Thank you for sharing.

I haven't read the whole thing yet, just skimmed.

I'm not sure I like the designation of NT versus aspie. It makes it sound like there's a war.

My other thought is that PDs might also benefit from being treated this way- in terms of strengths versus weaknesses instead of just a list of weaknesses or abnormalities.

In the stages of development, isn't childhood supposed to be geared towards conformity and learning social norms? That maybe why pw/ autism have such a hard time. They're non-conforming at an age where conformity is highly valued, even definitive of success.

Thanks again.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

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Very well then I contradict myself,
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby shock_the_monkey » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:26 am

pamelaperejil wrote:I haven't read the whole thing yet, just skimmed.

... this really does deserve an in-depth read, as it's basically say aspies are unsuspecting victims of NT conditioning.

pamelaperejil wrote:I'm not sure I like the designation of NT versus aspie. It makes it sound like there's a war.

... that was very much how it went down with my former employer.

pamelaperejil wrote:My other thought is that PDs might also benefit from being treated this way- in terms of strengths versus weaknesses instead of just a list of weaknesses or abnormalities.

... i do think there's a fundamental difference between a PD and a PDD. however, i'd be interested to know if PDs correlate to MBTIs, like AS does.

pamelaperejil wrote:In the stages of development, isn't childhood supposed to be geared towards conformity and learning social norms? That maybe why pw/ autism have such a hard time. They're non-conforming at an age where conformity is highly valued, even definitive of success.

... i think the point is that the attributes that aspies have are supposedly admired by NTs, yet they ignore them. conformity and learning social norms sounds to me a little like saying: don't be different because it make me uncomfortable. if that's the feedback we're really getting, no wonder we have such low self-esteem.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
shock_the_monkey
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby pamelaperejil » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:46 am

shock_the_monkey wrote:
pamelaperejil wrote:I haven't read the whole thing yet, just skimmed.

... this really does deserve an in-depth read, as it's basically say aspies are unsuspecting victims of NT conditioning.


I certainly intend to read it. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Will comment on the rest in a bit.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, Song of Myself
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby pamelaperejil » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:03 am

Okay. I read the whole thing. These are my thoughts:

1. It does seem a bit saccharine to me.

2. I'm not sure I understand the point. Is is advocating the elimination of Asperger's Syndrome from the DSM? (I had thought that was already happening; namely that Asperger's was being lumped together with the rest of Autism Spectrum.)

3. Is it suggesting that Asperger's is not a syndrome/disorder at all? (what is now called Asperger's and what will soon simply be called Autistic Spectrum Disorder, if I'm understanding correctly)? I'm not sure I agree. Would be interested in hearing your argument there if that's what you believe.

4. Surely it's not saying they ought to replace the diagnostic criteria (now a list of delays/deviations from norm) with a list of strengths and special talents instead? That seems silly. Assuming Asperger's is a disorder, the diagnostic criteria as it stands now makes sense. The purpose of diagnostics is not to make the patient feel good or to validate them but to identify a problem. That doesn't imply that Asperger's isn't associated with certain strengths and other special qualities. So I guess my question is: do you not believe Asperger's is a disorder? I thought I had heard you say you believed Asperger's was a disability.

5. Doubtless children need to be affirmed and validated by their teachers. No one gets through childhood unscathed. That's true of all children. But I wonder if teachers have the resources to affirm/validate/recognize/build the confidence of aspie children to the level that's being suggested here. It's a good idea in theory...

6. It seems unrealistic to expect teachers to re-tailor their approach and (even language itself) to meet the specific needs of aspie students. They could as easily be expected to recognize the special qualities of each and every one of their other 30 students, but this would be exhausting. Actually, iy would be impossible. They are struggling just to be teachers. Expecting them to be psychologists and cheerleaders seems a bit much to put on them, though it's a good idea in theory. I suspect teacher's are doing about as much as they can handle already.

7. The thing has an "us versus them" mentality that I dislike.

Thank you for sharing this.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, Song of Myself
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby pamelaperejil » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:43 am

shock_the_monkey wrote:
pamelaperejil wrote:I haven't read the whole thing yet, just skimmed.

... this really does deserve an in-depth read, as it's basically say aspies are unsuspecting victims of NT conditioning. Everything that happens to a child is conditioning, in one way or another.

I hate to say it, but you are too dramatic, I think. I believe you're using the term victim a bit loosely, though perhaps I'm not in a position to judge your experiences.

pamelaperejil wrote:I'm not sure I like the designation of NT versus aspie. It makes it sound like there's a war.

... that was very much how it went down with my former employer.

Then I'm confused. I thought you got fired for calling them on some kind of sketchy $#%^ they were doing. Being fired for doing that is not one and the same as being fired for having Asperger's. I'm not suggesting they weren't #######5 people, but you would expect to be fired for challenging your boss like that. Asperger's or no Asperger's.

pamelaperejil wrote:In the stages of development, isn't childhood supposed to be geared towards conformity and learning social norms? That maybe why pw/ autism have such a hard time. They're non-conforming at an age where comformity is highly valued, even definitive of success.

... i think the point is that the attributes that aspies have are supposedly admired by NTs, yet they ignore them. conformity and learning social norms sounds to me a little like saying: don't be different because it make me uncomfortable. if that's the feedback we're really getting, no wonder we have such low self-esteem.

But there is also a value in leaning conformity and it's a skill that's going to be required of them for the rest of their lives. Childhood is hard on everyone's self esteem.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, Song of Myself
User avatar
pamelaperejil
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby shock_the_monkey » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:59 am

pamelaperejil wrote:1. It does seem a bit saccharine to me.

... maybe. i don't think it was intended to be balanced. it's very much a case for the defence of AS being seen as just a disability.

pamelaperejil wrote:2. I'm not sure I understand the point. Is is advocating the elimination of Asperger's Syndrome from the DSM? (I had thought that was already happening; namely that Asperger's was being lumped together with the rest of Autism Spectrum.)

... no. it's attempting to re-orientate how AS is viewed by NTs.

pamelaperejil wrote:3. Is it suggesting that Asperger's is not a syndrome/disorder at all? (what is now called Asperger's and what will soon simply be called Autistic Spectrum Disorder, if I'm understanding correctly)? I'm not sure I agree. Would be interested in hearing your argument there if that's what you believe.

... no. it's simply emphasising the positive aspects of AS. and, yes, i believe AS is a disability. but what i'm now questioning a little more is to what extent that's conditioned by NT behaviours and expectations.

pamelaperejil wrote:4. Surely it's not saying they ought to replace the diagnostic criteria (now a list of delays/deviations from norm) with a list of strengths and special talents instead? That seems silly. Assuming Asperger's is a disorder, the diagnostic criteria as it stands now makes sense. The purpose of diagnostics is not to make the patient feel good or to validate them but to identify a problem. That doesn't imply that Asperger's isn't associated with certain strengths and other special qualities. So I guess my question is: do you not believe Asperger's is a disorder? I thought I had heard you say you believed Asperger's was a disability.

... i've always felt that DSM is unbalanced, as it only considers weaknesses. mental health isn't like physical health, in as much as there's a vast range of behaviours that are only aberrant within the context of social norms. i would much prefer a more MTBI based approach, which considers strengths and weaknesses.

pamelaperejil wrote:5. Doubtless children need to be affirmed and validated by their teachers. No one gets through childhood unscathed. That's true of all children. But I wonder if teachers have the resources to affirm/validate/recognize/build the confidence of aspie children to the level that's being suggested here. It's a good idea in theory...

... i think the point is that whilst NTs can instinctively relate to other NTs, that's lacking when it comes to relating to aspies, and that lack is detrimental to aspies. in other words, the NTs are failing to provide the necessary positive affirmations to the aspies that they do to the other NTs, which are essential for a sense of wellbeing, or self-esteem.

pamelaperejil wrote:6. It seems unrealistic to expect teachers to re-tailor their approach and (even language itself) to meet the specific needs of aspie students. They could as easily be expected to recognize the special qualities of each and every one of their other 30 students, but this would be exhausting. Actually, iy would be impossible. They are struggling just to be teachers. Expecting them to be psychologists and cheerleaders seems a bit much to put on them, though it's a good idea in theory. I suspect teacher's are doing about as much as they can handle already.

... i suspect much is lacking in many areas of society because we simply under-value caring.

pamelaperejil wrote:7. The thing has an "us versus them" mentality that I dislike.

... maybe. however, as i said previously, perhaps there's an element of truth in that.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
shock_the_monkey
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby pamelaperejil » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:17 am

shock_the_monkey wrote:... i suspect much is lacking in many areas of society because we simply under-value caring.


I agree. Teaching children to have have a greater understanding of Asperger's is a good idea.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, Song of Myself
User avatar
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby shock_the_monkey » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 am

pamelaperejil wrote:
shock_the_monkey wrote:
pamelaperejil wrote:I haven't read the whole thing yet, just skimmed.

... this really does deserve an in-depth read, as it's basically say aspies are unsuspecting victims of NT conditioning.


Everything that happens to a child is conditioning, in one way or another.

I hate to say it, but you are too dramatic, I think. I believe you're using the term victim a bit loosely, though perhaps I'm not in a position to judge your experiences.

... many years ago i read a book about the monkeys that were used in the early days of the NASA space program. apparently, they were trained to fly space capsules by being given electric shocks if they made the wrong response. on one particular re-entry the conditioning apparatus went haywire and started giving electric shocks to the correct responses. despite this, the monkey managed to make a safe re-entry. now, imagine this as analogous to the above, where the aspie child makes what it regards as a correct response and gets an electric shock from the teacher, because the teacher erroneously regards the response as wrong. in fact, no response can be worse, as this creates a feeling of worthlessness, as if it's not worth the teacher even bothering either way. when i think about my primary school education, i very much think i was completely ignored because i was regarded as retarded.

pamelaperejil wrote:
shock_the_monkey wrote:
pamelaperejil wrote:I'm not sure I like the designation of NT versus aspie. It makes it sound like there's a war.

... that was very much how it went down with my former employer.


Then I'm confused. I thought you got fired for calling them on some kind of sketchy $#%^ they were doing. Being fired for doing that is not one and the same as being fired for having Asperger's. I'm not suggesting they weren't #######5 people, but you would expect to be fired for challenging your boss like that. Asperger's or no Asperger's.

... they couldn't fire me because i told them that they were failing to comply with the certification regulations, as that would just have called attention to the fact. they fired me on the pretext that i had a PD. and that PD was really AS. but had they called it that, it would have fallen under the legal requirement for reasonable adjustments. so, yes, they fired me because i had AS, though they didn't call it that and they couldn't admit that was why i challenged them over their dishonesty, as none of my NT colleagues were going to do it.

pamelaperejil wrote:
shock_the_monkey wrote:
pamelaperejil wrote:In the stages of development, isn't childhood supposed to be geared towards conformity and learning social norms? That maybe why pw/ autism have such a hard time. They're non-conforming at an age where comformity is highly valued, even definitive of success.

... i think the point is that the attributes that aspies have are supposedly admired by NTs, yet they ignore them. conformity and learning social norms sounds to me a little like saying: don't be different because it make me uncomfortable. if that's the feedback we're really getting, no wonder we have such low self-esteem.


But there is also a value in leaning conformity and it's a skill that's going to be required of them for the rest of their lives. Childhood is hard on everyone's self esteem.

... oh, you mean all those lovely things like being ageist, sexist, dishonest, hypocritical. see what i mean. the values that society has are those that the preceding generations hand down to the succeeding ones. if NTs were so good at this, why is the world in such a mess. i remember, when i was at primary school, my head teacher gave a picture i'd drawn in my own time on my own initiative and using my own supplies to a visiting school inspector, took off me a mustard tin that my mother had given to me from which i intended to make a pinhole camera and used it as a petty cash box, accused me of stealing batteries that had somehow found their way into a tea chest used for arts and crafts materials, and even accused me of not writing a poem that i had spent a lot of time on because it was too good. impressive, wouldn't you say.
something knocked me out' the trees
now i'm on my knees
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

there is one thing you must be sure of
i can't take any more
... don't you know you're gonna shock the monkey

don't like it but i guess i'm learning

... shock the monkey to life
shock_the_monkey
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Re: The Discovery Of "Aspie" Criteria ...

Postby pamelaperejil » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:06 am

shock_the_monkey wrote:... many years ago i read a book about the monkeys that were used in the early days of the NASA space program. apparently, they were trained to fly space capsules by being given electric shocks if they made the wrong response. on one particular re-entry the conditioning apparatus went haywire and started giving electric shocks to the correct responses. despite this, the monkey managed to make a safe re-entry. now, imagine this as analogous to the above, where the aspie child makes what it regards as a correct response and gets an electric shock from the teacher, because the teacher erroneously regards the response as wrong. in fact, no response can be worse, as this creates a feeling of worthlessness, as if it's not worth the teacher even bothering either way. when i think about my primary school education, i very much think i was completely ignored because i was regarded as retarded.

I'm so sorry.

... they couldn't fire me because i told them that they were failing to comply with the certification regulations, as that would just be calling attention to the fact. they fired me on the pretext that i had a PD. and that PD was really AS. but had they called it that, it would have fallen under the legal requirement for reasonable adjustments. so, yes, they fired me because i had AS, though they didn't call it that and they couldn't admit that was why i challenged them over their dishonesty, as none of my NT colleagues were going to do it.

I'm sorry.

... oh, you mean all those lovely things like being ageist, sexist, hypocritical, dishonest. see what i mean. the values that society has are those that the preceding generations hand down to the succeeding ones. if NTs were so good at this, why is the world in such a mess. i remember, when i was at primary school, my head teacher gave a picture i'd drawn in my own time on my own initiative and using my own supplies to a visiting school inspector, took off me a mustard tin that my mother had given to me from which i intended to make a pinhole camera and used it as a petty cash box, and accused me of stealing batteries that had somehow found their way into a tea chest used for arts and crafts materials, and even accused me of not writing a poem that i had spent a lot of time on because it was too good. impressive, wouldn't you say.

You had quite the #######5 childhood then. I'm so sorry.
previously: pleasnpetrichor, perejil

Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Walt Whitman, Song of Myself
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