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Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

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Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:20 pm

• During WWII, 500 "middle-aged family men" were recruited to shoot - point blank - women, children, the elderly, and the disabled, with almost no training.

• They were told they could leave rather than participating in mass murder (included shooting infants in the head, day in and day out), but only 10% of the 500 did.

• Regular citizens
"dock workers ... truck drivers ... warehouse ... construction workers, machine operators, seamen, ... waiters.... in sales of some sort; ... various office jobs ... government and private sector... independent artisans ... small businessmen ... a handful ... were middle-class professionals, ... druggists and teachers... average age of the men was thirty-nine; ... considered too old for the army"


• They were not army indoctrinated like Nazis nor full of hate towards their victims

• So inexperienced, that they barely knew how to shoot
"At first we shot freehand. When one aimed too high, the entire skull exploded. As a consequence, brains and bones flew everywhere. Thus, we were instructed to place the bayonet point on the neck."

"there was a "considerable number of missed shots" that "led to the unnecessary wounding of the victims."


• Less than 20 were charged with war crimes

• The rest went back and resumed their regular lives.

• Milgram compared his experiment with the study of Battalion 101 concluding
"Men are led to kill with little difficulty."


• Additionally, it's been found that the corruption of children isn't exactly difficult either (as evidenced in Cambodia's Khmer Rouge training children to commit genocide (killing even their own teachers and parents) to create a 'master race' or Siberian work camps where POWs children and youth, who were raised in them, participated in the murders and rapes side by side with, or for, the criminal prisoners - crimes their parents wouldn't join in on).
^
This leads to a theory that children aren't born with morals or maybe even a conscience.

• It seems psychology professors accept Milgrams findings as human nature, and many will believe a conscience is learned rather than innate.

In this light, how is it not hypocritical to make antisocial personality disorder even a diagnosis?

• Or to label someone a psychopath or sociopath as if it's all that abnormal (admittedly there are developmental differences in some)?

• If this is an accurate reflection, how can anyone claim morality or "righteousness"?


Thoughts?

PDF Download to the book, "Ordinary Men," by Christopher Browning about Battalion 101
www2.dsu.nodak.edu/users/dmeier/20849228-Ordinary-Men-2.pdf
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby solemnlysworn » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:17 pm

These men were embarrassed that they were too old to serve their country like the young strapping men who were sent off to war -- "Sit down, grandpa; We've got this"

They were then given the opportunity to be of service. To fight the good fight.

"These people here are war criminals. We've judged them guilty and sentence them to death. In the service of the war and our great nation, we need to show the world that we do not tolerate those who threaten the security of our great nation and Her ideals.

Some of you may not be up to this. Some of you may be better suited to weaving in the mills with the women. You may leave now and go back to your cosy homes, leaving this fight to better men, or you can stand and fight with your brothers against our enemy who would kill your sons, your daughters and your wives. Who among you will leave?"

-- Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:26 pm --

DaturaInnoxia wrote:[i]In this light, how is it not hypocritical to make antisocial personality disorder even a diagnosis?


Those men went back to their normal lives, you mentioned. Are those with AsPD able to do that, as though the crime is an isolated event, or do they, in fact, have pervasive behavioural problems that are not in keeping with societal standards?

Maybe if the men were unable to stop killing people at gun point after this event, they too would be diagnosed AsPD (though without adolescent issues too this would probably not be the case).
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:34 pm

solemnlysworn wrote:These men were embarrassed that they were too old to serve their country like the young strapping men who were sent off to war -- "Sit down, grandpa; We've got this"

They were then given the opportunity to be of service. To fight the good fight.

"These people here are war criminals. We've judged them guilty and sentence them to death. In the service of the war and our great nation, we need to show the world that we do not tolerate those who threaten the security of our great nation and Her ideals.

Some of you may not be up to this. Some of you may be better suited to weaving in the mills with the women. You may leave now and go back to your cosy homes, leaving this fight to better men, or you can stand and fight with your brothers against our enemy who would kill your sons, your daughters and your wives. Who among you will leave?"


I don't remember that quote, but I only read a chapter here and there from what I quoted.

To shoot the most innocent and vulnerable in the head multiple times a day, for days and days - without any type of indoctrination or brainwashing - is more than that, I'm certain.

Any answer beyond the protection of their egos or patriotism?

My point in the post was studying obedience and how easily people are corrupted, hence why I add the bit about kids being fairly comfortable with murder too if trained at a young age.

And that all these people seem to be ok afterwards (little follow up on the kids, but I think there was follow up on 100-200 of the 500).
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby solemnlysworn » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:37 pm

Ah. The quote is me demonstrating ego-games and plays on patriotism. It's not from anything but in my head.

Yes, people are easily suggestible towards darker acts. The issue is that they can go back to normal and so it isn't pervasive which is why I only really answered with respect to how this might affect what our views on AsPD are. If people were able to then be suggested away from antisocial behaviours, we might have an argument for thinking otherwise about it
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:50 pm

I didn't see that last part.

So they're normal "good" people if they can murder when told and stop and go back to normal when they're relieved?

And they're ASPD if they develop a "taste" for it and keep going?

I don't see the difference between the two, but I think the first is as, if not, more disturbing.

solemnlysworn wrote:Ah. The quote is me demonstrating ego-games and plays on patriotism. It's not from anything but in my head.


Yeah, it makes sense for indoctrination.

solemnlysworn wrote:Yes, people are easily suggestible towards darker acts. The issue is that they can go back to normal and so it isn't pervasive which is why I only really answered with respect to how this might affect what our views on AsPD are. If people were able to then be suggested away from antisocial behaviours, we might have an argument for thinking otherwise about it


Again, it makes absolutely no sense to me, to be "moral" individuals, with consciences and empathy, then commit what are labeled the most immoral of acts (murdering infants, torturing people etc) because they're told to (and don't even have strong convictions in what they're doing) and then go back to their lives being "moral" or "psychotypical" people.

How is that not more psychopathic than a serial killer?

I think it's more normal for that type of thing to be pervasive rather than going from black to white to black again.

And if children aren't born with consciences, then why do we hold morality on such a high pedestal?
Why do we judge character on it if people aren't actually moral?
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby solemnlysworn » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:36 pm

it makes absolutely no sense to me, to be "moral" individuals, with consciences and empathy, then commit what are labeled the most immoral of acts (murdering infants, torturing people etc) because they're told to (and don't even have strong convictions in what they're doing


Are all soldiers psychopaths?

-- Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:37 pm --

This doesn't yet directly answer your question but I need to unpack it
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby salles » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:41 pm

DaturaInnoxia wrote:To shoot the most innocent and vulnerable in the head multiple times a day, for days and days - without any type of indoctrination or brainwashing - is more than that, I'm certain.

Any answer beyond the protection of their egos or patriotism?


They were brainwashed tho' in ww2. The third reich was masterful at propaganda.
Lord of the flies novel is a good example of the conflict between the human impulse towards savagery and the rules of civilization which are designed to contain and minimize it.
However, that was Golding's opinion of Human nature.
There are no real control studies done to prove whether or not man is born pure or barbaric.
Child soldiers can be psychologically explained numerous ways, based on the manipulation tactics of recruiters using brutality, abuse, neglect, threats etc.... and the nature of their war-torn, poverty stricken environments; their quest for revenge...etc..
As for the prognosis for kids after serving in wars:
'' research has shown that child recruits who survive armed conflict face a markedly elevated risk of debilitating psychiatric illness, poor literacy and numeracy, and behavioural problems. Research in Palestine and Uganda, for example, has found that more than half of former child soldiers showed symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and nearly nine in ten in Uganda screened positive for depressed mood. Researchers in Palestine also found that children exposed to high levels of violence in armed conflict were substantially more likely than other children to exhibit aggression and anti-social behaviour. The combined impact of these effects typically includes a high risk of poverty and lasting unemployment in adulthood.''


This is to be expected imo and doesn't necessarily prove what nature they may have had if their environmental circumstances had been different.
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby DaturaInnoxia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:41 pm

:| did guys really read my OP or just skim?

After more thought, I want to go further to say: if you're only "bad" if you keep acting antisocial - rather than randomly go back to being a "good" person, then why isn't vigilante-ism an act of great morality?

solemnlysworn wrote:
it makes absolutely no sense to me, to be "moral" individuals, with consciences and empathy, then commit what are labeled the most immoral of acts (murdering infants, torturing people etc) because they're told to (and don't even have strong convictions in what they're doing


Are all soldiers psychopaths?

-- Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:37 pm --

This doesn't yet directly answer your question but I need to unpack it



Hitler used brainwashing techniques (like many military at war does) on Nazis and gave them a shlt load of methamphetamines - which actually, with prolong use, de-activates some of the same parts of the brain that are underdeveloped in psychopaths.

And many soldiers come out pretty traumatized and most aren't participating in mass genocide (not sure how that's relevant tbh)

By all means, keep unpacking. I'm lost.

salles wrote:
DaturaInnoxia wrote:To shoot the most innocent and vulnerable in the head multiple times a day, for days and days - without any type of indoctrination or brainwashing - is more than that, I'm certain.

Any answer beyond the protection of their egos or patriotism?


They were brainwashed tho' in ww2. The third reich was masterful at propaganda.
Lord of the flies novel is a good example of the conflict between the human impulse towards savagery and the rules of civilization which are designed to contain and minimize it.
However, that was Golding's opinion of Human nature.
There are no real control studies done to prove whether or not man is born pure or barbaric.
Child soldiers can be psychologically explained numerous ways, based on the manipulation tactics of recruiters using brutality, abuse, neglect, threats etc.... and the nature of their war-torn, poverty stricken environments; their quest for revenge...etc..
As for the prognosis for kids after serving in wars:
'' research has shown that child recruits who survive armed conflict face a markedly elevated risk of debilitating psychiatric illness, poor literacy and numeracy, and behavioural problems. Research in Palestine and Uganda, for example, has found that more than half of former child soldiers showed symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder and nearly nine in ten in Uganda screened positive for depressed mood. Researchers in Palestine also found that children exposed to high levels of violence in armed conflict were substantially more likely than other children to exhibit aggression and anti-social behaviour. The combined impact of these effects typically includes a high risk of poverty and lasting unemployment in adulthood.''


This is to be expected imo and doesn't necessarily prove what nature they may have had if their environmental circumstances had been different.


These were ordinary men with almost no training which is the closest opportunity to study the nature of man.

My point being, the book indicates that this unit was not indoctrinated the way Nazis were and they didnt have enough emotional investment - especially to kill the weakest of the weak.

No, but there are theories that have been falsified, such as children are born pure and saintly or if left alone to their own devices, they'll turn out with with good "morals"

I hear you, but the point of mentioning Cambodia's Khmer Rouge is that it was a genocide or "cleansing" and those child soldiers' offspring are a lot of what makes up that population now - functional - not destroyed.

This is why I'm hoping people will go deeper than your typical pat answers to this topic.
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby salles » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:11 am

DaturaInnoxia wrote:It seems psychology professors accept Milgrams findings as human nature, and many will believe a conscience is learned rather than innate.


Having read a little more on Milgram's experiments , I have listed the points that have relevance below:

Milgram_ ''A subject who has neither ability nor expertise to make decisions, especially in a crisis, will leave decision making to the group and its hierarchy. The group is the person's behavioral model''

Milgram---''the essence of obedience consists in the fact that a person comes to view themselves as the instrument for carrying out another person's wishes, and they therefore no longer see themselves as responsible for their actions. Once this critical shift of viewpoint has occurred in the person, all of the essential features of obedience follow.''

Other academics-----''What "people cannot be counted on is to realize that a seemingly benevolent authority is in fact malevolent, even when they are faced with overwhelming evidence which suggests that this authority is indeed malevolent. Hence, the underlying cause for the subjects' striking conduct could well be conceptual, and not the alleged 'capacity of man to abandon his humanity ... as he merges his unique personality into larger institutional structures."'

Other academics-----''The conclusion of the book, influenced in part by the famous Milgram experiments popularized in the 1970s, was that the men of Unit 101 killed out of obedience to authority and peer pressure, not blood-lust or primal hatred''

There is no consensus among academics as to what Milgram has proven. He has also been criticised for distorting evidence.
Datura- It seems psychology professors accept Milgrams findings as human nature, and many will believe a conscience is learned rather than innate.

No. Many do not accept that his experiments and writings prove this. Hollander for example considers it more an inability in people to disobey toxic orders. The issues that emerged seem to be around Obedience rather than man's dormant capacity for evil.

''It’s a far cry from Milgram’s idea that the capacity for evil lies dormant in everyone, ready to be awakened with the right set of circumstances. The ability to disobey toxic orders, Hollander said, is a skill that can be taught like any other—all a person needs to learn is what to say and how to say it.''

Datura -In this light, how is it not hypocritical to make antisocial personality disorder even a diagnosis?

• Or to label someone a psychopath or sociopath as if it's all that abnormal (admittedly there are developmental differences in some)?

• If this is an accurate reflection, how can anyone claim morality or "righteousness"?


1. Antisocial disorder and sociopathy do not consist of individuals willing to obey a hierarchy of authority figures. In fact they are resistant to authority.
2. pwASPD have a consistent antisocial mind set. It is not something that can be changed at its core .
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Re: Reserve Police Battalion 101: The Real Milgram Experiment

Postby Eight » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:51 pm

Good analysis, salles. Thank you.
What you're saying here is consistent with current psychological thinking that capacity for conscience is inborn and development of conscience is then learned behavior.
That would include the learned ability/inability and skill development to resist malevolent authority.
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