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Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby VeritasCE » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:10 am

fiveintime wrote:I would say I rationalize, but don't blame shift.


I see Blame-Shifting as a form of Rationalisation, it's a message you construct to circumvent mechanisms within yourself and within others. The better you are at rationalising, the better seller you are to yourself and to others, and the more likely you are to live far from reality, in your own dimension.

Within yourself: You may not be able to face reality when you are unable to cope with punishment in a mature way (ASPD?), when you are unable to love yourself like you truly are and constantly telling yourself wonderful stories about how amazing you are (NPD?), when you are unable to deal with the complexity and reality of the love of adults toward yourself, which is somewhat different from the love of a mother to a child (BPD?), when you are unable to dissociate attention from other things (HPD?).

In Others: Every person has mechanisms to protect themselves vs others. When something affects us negatively we have mechanisms to adapt our construct of reality to lessen our exposure to persons we are to blame for it, or to act on that knowledge to avoid the probability of it happening again. When we successfully blame-shift, that's the mechanisms in others that we are circumventing: the ones which allows them either to punish us, to like us less, to be more defensive towards us, or otherwise be less malleable and good for us in the future.

-- Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:16 am --

VeritasCE wrote: The better you are at rationalising, the better seller you are to yourself and to others, and the more likely you are to live far from reality, in your own dimension.


For that reason, some people with PDs make far better marketers than NONs. They've trained it all their lives and are constantly training their skills in their daily lives, selling stuff to themselves and to others as a normal way of living every instant and of coping with stuff.

I think the best Marketers are the ones who both do this constantly and at the same time have the greatest ability to objectively assess how well their rationalisation is working on their surrounding (NPDs?).
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby VeritasCE » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:40 am

VernonJenkins wrote: I think what's known as "blame-shifting" is typically a focus of a person on how another person's behaviour influenced their own behaviour, rather than literal blaming. Neither that nor rationalisation by the person of said behaviour necessarily indicates a need to do so in order to feel okay about it. I would guess, based on my understanding of Psychopathy/Antisocial Personality Disorder, that many of these people don't need to hide from guilt because they aren't capable of experiencing guilt.


Well, somehow focusing on anything but your strict behaviour is focusing on anything other than what you are accountable for in the story, which sounds a lot like trying to circumvent an internal mechanism for guilt (wether or not it is present), to avoid punishment, or both, which is exactly how I could define "Blame-Shifting".
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby justonemoreperson » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:59 am

VeritasCE wrote:
I see Blame-Shifting as a form of Rationalisation, it's a message you construct to circumvent mechanisms within yourself and within others. The better you are at rationalising, the better seller you are to yourself and to others, and the more likely you are to live far from reality, in your own dimension.


I try hard not to blame shift in my own head, as I see it as a form of weakness; if you can't face up to your own behaviour then you're afraid of what you are. Blaming something else for what you are / do doesn't make any difference to what has happened and it stops you from learning about yourself.

That said, it's easier said than done, as you're using your own mind to try to be objective about yourself.

I also find that people will try to dissuade you from blaming yourself for certain things, as if they feel you're beating yourself up over something when, in reality, all you're trying to do is uncover the truth as to why something happened.

Understanding why something happened is important to stop it from happening again otherwise, as you say, you're living in fantasy land.
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby VeritasCE » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:21 am

justonemoreperson wrote:
VeritasCE wrote:
I see Blame-Shifting as a form of Rationalisation, it's a message you construct to circumvent mechanisms within yourself and within others. The better you are at rationalising, the better seller you are to yourself and to others, and the more likely you are to live far from reality, in your own dimension.


I try hard not to blame shift in my own head, as I see it as a form of weakness; if you can't face up to your own behaviour then you're afraid of what you are. Blaming something else for what you are / do doesn't make any difference to what has happened and it stops you from learning about yourself.

That said, it's easier said than done, as you're using your own mind to try to be objective about yourself.

I also find that people will try to dissuade you from blaming yourself for certain things, as if they feel you're beating yourself up over something when, in reality, all you're trying to do is uncover the truth as to why something happened.



Good words there.
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby justonemoreperson » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:32 am

VeritasCE wrote:
When you lie to someone else, you lie a bit to yourself too at the same time, so you are less likely to see reality as is, whether or not you are doing it on purpose.


This is true and more invasive than we realise. It's true that we can consciously lie and affect our own perception, as you say, but it's also true that we do so subconsciously too, all of the time.

We assume that if we remember something that it must be what happened, but the amount that we actually remember is quite small compared to what happened. What makes it worse is that we are 100% confident of what we believe.

Interesting article on this:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mi ... -illusion/
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby VernonJenkins » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:34 pm

VeritasCE wrote:Well, somehow focusing on anything but your strict behaviour is focusing on anything other than what you are accountable for in the story, which sounds a lot like trying to circumvent an internal mechanism for guilt (wether or not it is present), to avoid punishment, or both, which is exactly how I could define "Blame-Shifting".

Not necessarily.

"Blame-shifting" can also simply just be a product of self-reflection by a person about why they behaved a certain way, which I can relate to.

There was a guy recently who called me out for cutting him off on his bike. We exchanged some words, he made an aggressive move and then I punched him in the face. My focus is on how he influenced my behaviour and my rationalisation is that I was protecting myself. I wouldn't have done what I did had he not been aggressive towards me and I don't feel guilty about it because I don't feel that it was wrong, nor am I trying to hide from any guilt because the feeling of it being wrong was never present in the first place.
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby VeritasCE » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:44 pm

VernonJenkins wrote:
VeritasCE wrote:Well, somehow focusing on anything but your strict behaviour is focusing on anything other than what you are accountable for in the story, which sounds a lot like trying to circumvent an internal mechanism for guilt (wether or not it is present), to avoid punishment, or both, which is exactly how I could define "Blame-Shifting".

Not necessarily.

"Blame-shifting" can also simply just be a product of self-reflection by a person about why they behaved a certain way, which I can relate to.

There was a guy recently who called me out for cutting him off on his bike. We exchanged some words, he made an aggressive move and then I punched him in the face. My focus is on how he influenced my behaviour and my rationalisation is that I was protecting myself. I wouldn't have done what I did had he not been aggressive towards me and I don't feel guilty about it because I don't feel that it was wrong, nor am I trying to hide from any guilt because the feeling of it being wrong was never present in the first place.



You are both to blame for him getting punched, you more than him probably since you cut him off and you took the move to punch him. Now you are shifting your part of the blame onto him (even if you wouldn't feel guilty where you to have 100% of the blame). To me, this looks like blame-shifting.
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby VernonJenkins » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:49 pm

VeritasCE wrote:You are both to blame for him getting punched, you more than him probably since you cut him off and you took the move to punch him.

I realise that I'm responsible for my own actions.

Now you are shifting your part of the blame onto him (even if you wouldn't feel guilty where you to have 100% of the blame). To me, this looks like blame-shifting.

I suppose I could have ran away, but that wouldn't have been any fun. He had it coming for being a douche.
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby fiveintime » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:46 pm

VeritasCE wrote:Every person has mechanisms to protect themselves vs others.


I avoid and ignore. I've been perfecting those skill since I was a kid. I didn't do my schoolwork for years. I wouldn't flat out refuse or make excuses--I just sort of shrugged it off and didn't do it. That's probably why I've never really felt the need to blame-shift.

justonemoreperson wrote:Interesting article on this:


I've read a lot about that too. The danger of this kind of info is that a lot of times the people sharing it seem to think they have the edge on rationality. It's all those other people who are bending and contorting reality, have distorted memories, etc, but they're the one rational individual with clarity. Not that you're doing that, but I've run into that way too often.

What it's really telling us is that, to varying degrees, we're all incapable of seeing reality clearly.
I'm not crazy. My reality is just different from yours.
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Re: Blame-Shifting & Rationalization: External vs Internal?

Postby justonemoreperson » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:03 pm

fiveintime wrote:
What it's really telling us is that, to varying degrees, we're all incapable of seeing reality clearly.


This is where the value lies. If it does nothing else but to make us consider that our reality is biased, it's done enough.
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