Philosophy/mysticism - the relationship to magical thinking

What draws me to those things, is the same that draws me to Hollywood, which is fresh material and metaphors and words to be able to understand and interact with the outside world. It is a way to speak alien.

Saint.F wrote:

stnkht wrote:It's clear that schizotypes are drawn to philosophy, theology, mysticism and the like, but what comes first, a curiosity about those things or the magical thinking which then leads to them? I'm personally more the disorganised type so don't have magical thinking, but I've always had an interest in the aforementioned subjects, and anything pertaining to transcendence.
So, any thoughts?

Any subject or practice that is pursued deeply enough will reach a mystical level. When those deep levels begin to surface, people often perceive themselves acquiring "powers" or magical thinking. In Hinduism, they're called siddhis. Having experienced some of these myself, I view it as an intuitive faculty that can indeed seem magical. Advanced mystics caution people to ignore such manifestation because it is a side path that will ultimately detract from transcendence.

Interesting! I read about siddhis in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia wrote:Aadhidaivik dukkh-haan: freedom from pain etc. caused by fate or due to reliance on fate

This must be connected to the Hinduist belief in reincarnation and I don't really know what position fate has there. I'd like to know though, does this always necessitate doing certain things first, like a 'subject or practice that is pursued deeply enough'? And what are those subjects and practices that you referred to, rituals or just about anything?

under ice wrote:Interesting! I read about siddhis in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia wrote:Aadhidaivik dukkh-haan: freedom from pain etc. caused by fate or due to reliance on fate

This must be connected to the Hinduist belief in reincarnation and I don't really know what position fate has there. I'd like to know though, does this always necessitate doing certain things first, like a 'subject or practice that is pursued deeply enough'? And what are those subjects and practices that you referred to, rituals or just about anything?

Anything that is pursued deeply enough, from stamp collecting to philosophical inquiry, playing darts, meditation, anything. A person chooses according to their personal inclination. I like the idea of "unfathomable karma" because it is unfathomable the number of factors that account for a person's preference of one thing over another -- from the standpoint of genetics alone! The key is not what you go deeply into, but that you go deeply into it, and that is difficult for most people, mainly because the deeper you go, the more you lose external road maps. So what has to be very strong, if you are to keep going, is your desire for the thing -- whatever that thing is.

Hinduism calls it your "Ishta Devata" or chosen deity or chosen ideal. It can be something as abstract as the idea of beauty, or the idea of freedom, or as concrete as your child or your dog, your hobby, or interest. But because it is difficult to go deeply into a thing, people look to mystics for help, since they are the ones who've gone deeply themselves. But again, the key seems to be in your desire for the thing. That's what will enable you to keep going.

Saint.F wrote:

under ice wrote:Interesting! I read about siddhis in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia wrote:Aadhidaivik dukkh-haan: freedom from pain etc. caused by fate or due to reliance on fate

This must be connected to the Hinduist belief in reincarnation and I don't really know what position fate has there. I'd like to know though, does this always necessitate doing certain things first, like a 'subject or practice that is pursued deeply enough'? And what are those subjects and practices that you referred to, rituals or just about anything?

Anything that is pursued deeply enough, from stamp collecting to philosophical inquiry, playing darts, meditation, anything. A person chooses according to their personal inclination. I like the idea of "unfathomable karma" because it is unfathomable the number of factors that account for a person's preference of one thing over another -- from the standpoint of genetics alone! The key is not what you go deeply into, but that you go deeply into it, and that is difficult for most people, mainly because the deeper you go, the more you lose external road maps. So what has to be very strong, if you are to keep going, is your desire for the thing -- whatever that thing is.

Hinduism calls it your "Ishta Devata" or chosen deity or chosen ideal. It can be something as abstract as the idea of beauty, or the idea of freedom, or as concrete as your child or your dog, your hobby, or interest. But because it is difficult to go deeply into a thing, people look to mystics for help, since they are the ones who've gone deeply themselves. But again, the key seems to be in your desire for the thing. That's what will enable you to keep going.

Thank you.

The first bit that I bolded made me wonder, does Hinduism say anything about the kind of "karma" that you don't really desire in the first place but that forces you to go deep into something so that you have no choice and likewise, no external guidelines? For instance if you have a medical condition that cannot be treated and it shapes your life in a very unique way, are those people already "there"? I think I've read that deformed babies are regarded as holy in Hinduism.
What about people with mental illnesses?
And what about those people who go deep into drug or alcohol abuse? Everyone knows how deep they can go, and they certainly have the desire to do it... do they get siddhis, or does it make them special in any other way?

The second bit I bolded, thanks, that was some valuable piece of information .

under ice wrote:The first bit that I bolded made me wonder, does Hinduism say anything about the kind of "karma" that you don't really desire in the first place but that forces you to go deep into something so that you have no choice and likewise, no external guidelines? For instance if you have a medical condition that cannot be treated and it shapes your life in a very unique way, are those people already "there"? I think I've read that deformed babies are regarded as holy in Hinduism.
What about people with mental illnesses?
And what about those people who go deep into drug or alcohol abuse? Everyone knows how deep they can go, and they certainly have the desire to do it... do they get siddhis, or does it make them special in any other way?

If you are suffering deeply, for whatever reason -- medical condition, mental illness, life circumstances, etc., then your desire to be free of that suffering may be very strong. In terms of mysticism, that suffering gives you great power since it gives you great desire to be free of it. You may never be able to change your external conditions, but mystical states don't require external conditions to change in order to realize them. You can be free of your suffering even though the external conditions which you perceive as the cause of your suffering are still present.

As far as the siddhis are concerned, I wouldn't pursue them as an end in themselves. It's scenery along the way, but not without dangers. A commitment to meditation works best for me.

Saint.F wrote:

under ice wrote:The first bit that I bolded made me wonder, does Hinduism say anything about the kind of "karma" that you don't really desire in the first place but that forces you to go deep into something so that you have no choice and likewise, no external guidelines? For instance if you have a medical condition that cannot be treated and it shapes your life in a very unique way, are those people already "there"? I think I've read that deformed babies are regarded as holy in Hinduism.
What about people with mental illnesses?
And what about those people who go deep into drug or alcohol abuse? Everyone knows how deep they can go, and they certainly have the desire to do it... do they get siddhis, or does it make them special in any other way?

If you are suffering deeply, for whatever reason -- medical condition, mental illness, life circumstances, etc., then your desire to be free of that suffering may be very strong. In terms of mysticism, that suffering gives you great power since it gives you great desire to be free of it. You may never be able to change your external conditions, but mystical states don't require external conditions to change in order to realize them. You can be free of your suffering even though the external conditions which you perceive as the cause of your suffering are still present.

All right.

As far as the siddhis are concerned, I wouldn't pursue them as an end in themselves. It's scenery along the way, but not without dangers. A commitment to meditation works best for me.

I agree that such pursuit would be foolish, although I can imagine that acquiring something like that might be exciting, at least for a while.

Saint.F wrote:A commitment to meditation works best for me.

Any recommendations as to how one might achieve this? I've long been interested in meditation, watched a few videos explaining methods to no avail, can't get comfortable or empty my mind.

stnkht wrote:

Saint.F wrote:A commitment to meditation works best for me.

Any recommendations as to how one might achieve this? I've long been interested in meditation, watched a few videos explaining methods to no avail, can't get comfortable or empty my mind.

Yeah. It's a process and goes through many stages. I've read and attempted countless forms of meditation over the years and never could stay with anything either. What enabled me to commit to a practice (I haven't missed day since March of 2013) was a book by Yogani called Deep Meditation. On his website, aypsite.org there is a huge amount of free instruction on Hindu practices, with Deep Meditation being the anchor one. You can find the free instruction on the left column of the main page (it scrolls down for awhile), but it's somewhat piecemeal. I would suggest downloading the book, Deep Meditation (all publications are on the right side of the main page, just scroll down to find Deep Meditation -- it's not expensive). But again, all instruction on deep meditation is on the website, but it's not all in one place. Feel free to contact me if you have questions. Good luck

Saint.F wrote:

stnkht wrote:

Saint.F wrote:A commitment to meditation works best for me.

Any recommendations as to how one might achieve this? I've long been interested in meditation, watched a few videos explaining methods to no avail, can't get comfortable or empty my mind.

Yeah. It's a process and goes through many stages. I've read and attempted countless forms of meditation over the years and never could stay with anything either. What enabled me to commit to a practice (I haven't missed day since March of 2013) was a book by Yogani called Deep Meditation. On his website, aypsite.org there is a huge amount of free instruction on Hindu practices, with Deep Meditation being the anchor one. You can find the free instruction on the left column of the main page (it scrolls down for awhile), but it's somewhat piecemeal. I would suggest downloading the book, Deep Meditation (all publications are on the right side of the main page, just scroll down to find Deep Meditation -- it's not expensive). But again, all instruction on deep meditation is on the website, but it's not all in one place. Feel free to contact me if you have questions. Good luck

Much obliged, sir.