Disturbance of ipseity in schizoids

ZonedOut wrote:Before I proceed, let's just introduce a general way how you could think about this kind of stuff. Personally, I tend to believe that when things really apply to someone, one doesn't really need to ask whether it fits one's own situation or not. For me, it all sounds like I could have written it myself, so there is no need for me to think about whether it applies or not. It fits my experiences perfectly and instantly. So, when you think 'Yeah... that's totally me!' while reading it, then it likely applies, but when you think 'Hm... I don't know, maybe?' or 'What the hell is this all about?', then it likely doesn't. Well, that's my personal heuristic way to look at such things. For me, this usually works.

I find it straightforward to rule out when things definitely don't apply. I've never diagnosed myself with Histrionic PD, for example. The Ipseity examples were written for nons though. I struggle with putting labels on things that seem to be business as usual for me. I over generalise my thinking to assume everyone else is up to similar stuff. It's a good heuristic though. I expect I am over thinking the definitions.

ZonedOut wrote:When emotions are not experienced in a full way making one more 'lively' in some sense, one feels like he has to move oneself through life on sheer conscious willpower, rather than having an intrinsic drive doing this for him.

I guess that's why I question it. I can't really imagine that mind state. It's usually more likely that I'm misunderstanding. Rather than that people are doing bizarre things like that.

Ada wrote:A couple of times a day I'll feel like I've been pushed outside my first person view.

ZonedOut wrote:In the way you described it here, it sounds more like dissociation to me.

<nods> Imaginary dissociation. I think I've got problems.

Doesn't it feel like you are continuously monitoring your own thought process, and your inner life in general, like observing and monitoring your inner self from a third person perspective? That's a clear example of hyperreflexivity.

Or maybe an artifact of blogging for years and being in therapy? In that all experience is filtered as an imaginary blog post. Or start of a T session. Again, I am not sure what "normal" reflexivity would feel like. Everyone thinks non stop [unless they're meditation masters.] That mental commentary seems like it would be "normal." I think this is probably a no, in that case.

Ada wrote:I find it straightforward to rule out when things definitely don't apply. I've never diagnosed myself with Histrionic PD, for example. The Ipseity examples were written for nons though. I struggle with putting labels on things that seem to be business as usual for me. I over generalise my thinking to assume everyone else is up to similar stuff. It's a good heuristic though. I expect I am over thinking the definitions.

I agree it's better not to label everything. For me, it's more to give more direction to my understanding of particular things rather than the labeling of those things itself. Hence, I try to relate only to things I'm convinced of that it really applies to me. This prevents me from overlabeling and overanalysing normal behavior in myself.

Ada wrote:I guess that's why I question it. I can't really imagine that mind state. It's usually more likely that I'm misunderstanding. Rather than that people are doing bizarre things like that.

Do you mean you can't imagine having an intrinsic drive that moves you through life, or what? I'm not really sure here to what you are referring.

Ada wrote:

Ada wrote:A couple of times a day I'll feel like I've been pushed outside my first person view.

ZonedOut wrote:In the way you described it here, it sounds more like dissociation to me.

<nods> Imaginary dissociation. I think I've got problems.

Fortunately, the act of merely giving it a name doesn't make it more of a problem necessarily. Besides, it was just a thought. I can't tell you whether it's dissociation or not of course - and I'm not even allowed to do so either.

Ada wrote:Or maybe an artifact of blogging for years and being in therapy? In that all experience is filtered as an imaginary blog post. Or start of a T session. Again, I am not sure what "normal" reflexivity would feel like. Everyone thinks non stop [unless they're meditation masters.] That mental commentary seems like it would be "normal." I think this is probably a no, in that case.

Yes, but most people will be inside their thought process instead of aside or above it, if you get what I mean. They will live their thoughts, instead of observing their thoughts. You know, this subjective experience is one of the hardest things to put in words. For many things I feel, for the many things I believe the idea of ipseity disturbance accounts for, I just can't find the words to communicate it.

Ada wrote:I guess that's why I question it. I can't really imagine that mind state. It's usually more likely that I'm misunderstanding. Rather than that people are doing bizarre things like that.

ZonedOut wrote:Do you mean you can't imagine having an intrinsic drive that moves you through life, or what? I'm not really sure here to what you are referring.

Yes, that intrinsic drive. eg. I decide when to eat and sleep by the clock, mostly. It's rare that there's a drive present to say "hey, so hungry or tired now, I must do X." I feel both. But they aren't exactly motivational. Let alone for more complicated stuff like life goals. But then again so many people complain about their motivation. Or they're more motivated to sit on the sofa with doritos. Than any other goals they set. That I'm not clear that I'm understanding the line between "normal" and "odd."

ZonedOut wrote:Fortunately, the act of merely giving it a name doesn't make it more of a problem necessarily. Besides, it was just a thought. I can't tell you whether it's dissociation or not of course - and I'm not even allowed to do so either.

Ah, that's OK. I didn't take it as a Dx. It's just an odd thing to happen during time which ought to be "neutral." I hadn't separated it out as a thing before. It's helpful to do so and think about it. [Outside this thread.]

"When ipseity is disrupted, however, individuals do not as readily perceive themselves as the source of some smell. They direct their attention to this smell, vigilantly and disproportionately. Similarly, they direct their attention to other sensations, thoughts, or events that most individuals recognize are merely connected to themselves."

This does not describe me to my knowledge.

"Second, these individuals exhibit diminished self-affection. They do not experience a subjective sense of vitality or intensity. They do not perceive themselves as present or instrumental."

This fits, however the following sentences...
"They feel their motivation to meet someone, for example, is their own. When ipseity is disturbed, however, individuals do not recognize these motivations, wishes, or desires are their own. These goals are not branded with a sense of self. These goals feel more like objective concepts, wafting in their air, rather than motivational forces."

...do not. It is not 'I see it but don't experience it', it is 'I do not experience it at all.'

"That is, objects do not seem to cohere to a unified framework. Many objects or thoughts seem to appear or vanish haphazardly."

This could describe me in a sense, but like Ada, my thoughts are coherent while I have them. They are not coherent enough to articulate, but at the moment in time of course they make sense. To more forcefully try to fit them into a framework means losing a lot of the thoughts in the first place.

"To illustrate these properties, for some individuals, the experience of music diminishes. Rather than merely experience the vitality and intensity of the music experience, some individuals become more aware of their reflections and thoughts about the music. They feel they are observing their reflections instead of experiencing the music itself. This example corresponds to hyper-reflexivity towards thoughts, a decline in vitality, and the inability to unify these sensations to a unified framework."

I don't see how this illustrates what the author was saying in any of their previous 3 points to make sense, regardless of whether this applies to me or not. One's motivation isn't a factor in enjoyment of listening to music for instance. Flitting thoughts and inability to focus on music of course would interfere with being able to enjoy music, but the author doesn't describe that as part of the process. The only part of the 3 paragraphs that Ada linked above that seems to actually apply in this paragraph is the first one.

Ada wrote:But then again so many people complain about their motivation. Or they're more motivated to sit on the sofa with doritos. Than any other goals they set. That I'm not clear that I'm understanding the line between "normal" and "odd."

Yeah, I think it's because other factors can cause motivational problems as well, for example depression, too high demands (which are discouraging) or cannabis use. The latter causes the so-called amotivational syndrome.

Acinorev wrote:I don't see how this illustrates what the author was saying in any of their previous 3 points to make sense, regardless of whether this applies to me or not. One's motivation isn't a factor in enjoyment of listening to music for instance. Flitting thoughts and inability to focus on music of course would interfere with being able to enjoy music, but the author doesn't describe that as part of the process. The only part of the 3 paragraphs that Ada linked above that seems to actually apply in this paragraph is the first one.

I don't think the music thing should be linked to motivation. It's linked to hyperreflexivity. Hyperreflectivity can cause lack of motivation, but other things as well. Lack of motivation was just another example.

"I tend to believe that when things really apply to someone, one doesn't really need to ask whether it fits one's own situation or not."

The more I think about this, the more #######4 it sounds to me. I've read too many comments about, for instance, people who do not think they have autism when they get diagnosed with it, for instance. More regarding this conversation, I don't think I'm self-aware enough of my own state of mind.

Like in the other thread about 'disturbed thoughts' being a criteria for a new dsm diagnosis, how can someone, if they've only ever had disturbed thoughts, think of themselves as having disturbed thoughts? Even if they see that other people act differently from what the person in question's thoughts are, that doesn't mean that even the observation of someone else necessarily leads to the idea that that person's actions match what's going on inside. Secondly, even if one could somehow discern that their thoughts were actually disturbed, there's nothing really to say that they will then, suddenly, try and change the only way they've ever been. And if the only way you've ever been does not feel disordered in any way, then when someone comes by and tries to stick a label or diagnosis to you of saying you're disordered, why would that make you believe you are somehow any more disturbed?

Like, imagine reading what you read from a totally, 100% perspective that you yourself currently have, about watching your life instead of living it. If you had only ever watched your life, why would you ever think that that's not, in fact, living it? In order to understand it, you would not really need for someone to describe in detail what you're like, but probably rather describe in detail what NOT being like that is like, so you actually have a difference to compare to.

I do not believe that one requires any sort of 'ringing true' or gut feeling or any other such thing in order for something to apply. There are also just too many people who quite obviously portray the symptoms that match the label they've been given, yet they fight tooth and nail that it does not fit. NO ONE is a true outside observer of themselves, we are all horribly subjective to the point that even some basic ideas like thinking 'I am sane' seem to involve vast differences in what the experience of 'sanity' actually is.

@ Zonedout
words such as phenomomologyu, ipseity...are unecessarily complicated and off putting. One would almost need a degree in phillosophy to understand the terms...but anyway i could relate to this bit

They may complain of
being "occupied by, and scrutinizing, my own inner
world," of "excessive brooding [and] analyzing and
defining myself and my thoughts," of feeling "like a
spectator to my own life," of "painful distance to self,"
or of having "thoughts . . . so numerous that I didn't
manage talking to people" (Møller and Husby 2000, pp.

yes I relate to this. Even while in company i brood and do not engage except on the odd occasion when I can contribute a 10 minute burst of energy and buoyancy which precedes a crash. A'depressants are very helpful in suppressing a feeling of being trapped and panicky whilst in company.

221-223, 228). The patient may sense a sort of "inner
void" or "lack of inner nucleus" (Parnas and Handest
2003). One patient reported that his feeling of his experience
as his own experience only "appeared a split-second
delayed." Some of these complaints indicate that the
luminosity or vitality of consciousness was somehow
disturbed or diminished: "I have no consciousness,"
"My consciousness is not as whole as it should be," "I
am half-awake," "My I-feeling is diminished," "My I is
disappearing for me," "It is a continuous universal
blocking" (Berze 1914; pp. 126-127)

I have accepted being an observer rather than a partaker in life. I have been like this since a young age.
I recently told my Doctor that life seems surreal; an unfolding of madness, sadness elation, suffering is happening all around me . To enter the fracas in an effort to take what I want; go for what I want is akin to putting my hand into a huge gaseous chamber and groping around for a droplet of joy, which is not tangible even if located accurately.

Lucinda wrote:I recently told my Doctor that life seems surreal; an unfolding of madness, sadness elation, suffering is happening all around me . To enter the fracas in an effort to take what I want; go for what I want is akin to putting my hand into a huge gaseous chamber and groping around for a droplet of joy, which is not tangible even if located accurately.

Just curious, how did he/she react to it?

ZonedOut wrote:

Lucinda wrote:I recently told my Doctor that life seems surreal; an unfolding of madness, sadness elation, suffering is happening all around me . To enter the fracas in an effort to take what I want; go for what I want is akin to putting my hand into a huge gaseous chamber and groping around for a droplet of joy, which is not tangible even if located accurately.

Just curious, how did he/she react to it?

With a ridiculous comment. he said
''hmm the Irish..are deep''

Lucinda wrote:I recently told my Doctor that life seems surreal; an unfolding of madness, sadness elation, suffering is happening all around me . To enter the fracas in an effort to take what I want; go for what I want is akin to putting my hand into a huge gaseous chamber and groping around for a droplet of joy, which is not tangible even if located accurately.

Took the words right off my mouth (just passing by, nevermind me..)