Dysfunctional or Disorder-ed?

I've started this topic to keep the conversation I'm in from taking over another thread because it seems that sometimes problems might not be due to NPD and there might be too much rush to diagnose a PD where there is none, as a part of the issues between people - I've done it myself. Breaking your leg doesn't mean you have osteoporosis, sort of thing, sometimes you just landed wrong after a fall...

EarlyMorning wrote:
My ex doesnt take heroin anymore (but he does take something whether meth or pills to help him in his withdrawal). He also still smokes cannabis. I dont know if all the I I I me me me can be attributed to that rather than npd.

Sometimes, people can be self-focussing but not have a persistent disorder of narcissistic behavior. A drug addiction or recovery from such is a terrifically self-focussing state to be in. Without your ex being clean, it would be hard to know what his actually personality was like anyway because he could be self-medicating for a perpetual condition of anxiety or he could simply be using it as a painkiller or to help him eat, sleep, feel more social etc and it puts him in a drug-enhanced mood not just plain old default himself so it's difficult to say. As we know, there's more to Narcissism than just being 'me, Me, ME!'.

EarlyMorning wrote:
Recently when i have been speaking to him, Ive made the conscious effort to praise good things, to not ask him to do anything, to only ask him what he wants to do choice wise with his life, to not contact him unless he contacts me, to sound only happy to hear from him, and to listen to whatever he wants to talk about. This has resulted in him not being I I I me me me at all. Infact he has often asked me how I am, how I am after my recent op, how my work is etc which is odd. He wouldnt really before. There have been a couple of times where he'd start to do what he would do before which is get down about how he'd treated me and say how he hated himself for it but I interrupt and say no need to talk about that its done and we're talking so its all good and then he snaps quickly out of that "woe is me" feel. I dont like him dwelling in that feeling as the depression it brings on then brings aggression to the people making him feel that way (Ie: Im sorry I feel bad i hate myself Im down f**k them for making me feel like this b***hes).

I guess Im speaking to him like a child (without condescension. He talks like he's very young although he's 38, he sounds young, he's uneducated although not stupid, but he sounds like a young teen rather than a grown adult both in voice and content, with a nervous sounding little laugh at the end of most of his sentences) atm although letting him make his own choices. He seems to be responding. Albeit theres been no outward shows of spitefulness. Im a "caring woman" now not a "spiteful b***h". What he thinks really in is mind though about me is another matter.

He also sent me a text last night saying he needs me, loves and misses me more than I could ever know or understand. I have no idea what he means by the latter part. But he did say that at the beginning of the relationship too. That I would never understand how much. One day I may ask him to try and explain what he means, if he can.

Early, it sounds to me like you've changed your own attitude towards your ex and there are benefits being reaped from that. In your own words, you seem gentler, kinder, more patient, more upbeat, lift him out of the guilts, you're allowing him to feel more confident by showing your respect for him and letting him stretch his wings a bit more - it's not surprising that you're a 'caring woman' and not a 'spiteful b*tch' when you appear to him like a caring woman and not a spiteful b*tch. Just a thought, not wishing to say you were a spiteful b*tch before ! You might be doing your own head in thinking he's gonna jump up one day and all the nice behavior is a sham, it's totally understandable to do that of course, but it might not happen if things stay pleasant between you.

EarlyMorning wrote:
I dont know if I'll ever work out what he has. But I know he has something. In the meantime I wont abandon him. Just got to get on with things and be there for him at the end of a phone if he needs me. Will I ever see him again? I dont know. He keeps saying hes coming to see me then doesnt. Next weekend he says he 100% is as he has the money to. We will see.

Does he actually need to 'have' something? I've been trying to work out what PD one of my friends has but I've come to the conclusion that she's just dysfunctional in romantic relationships because her expectations are too high & obscure and she sleeps around without getting to know people first, she doesn't like herself so she has trouble appreciating other people without jealousy, has never really owned up to mistakes she's made and it comes out as fear-led manipulation and she keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again and getting depressed/angry about which makes her lash out or oppressively moody. She has traits of bipolar, NPD, HPD - I could go on - but really she's just dysfunctional in different parts of her life and she doesn't really do much self-analysis, no PD involved at all perhaps.

And in your ex's case Early, you've said he's most likely ASPD, could his lifestyle be self-centred and not him having the personality disorder of Narcissism? I'm not trying to throw doubt at you or discount what you say because you know your ex & I don't, I'm just wondering if there is a different explanation than NPD is all .

Anyone, do you think there might sometimes be too much rush to label someone with NPD when it's a collection of traits that are less fixed? Are people looking for Personality Disorders where none exist?

Thanks Seventy I appreciate this.

I would really like to think he doesnt have a PD like NPD or AsPD that way he could get help...

and yes I agree I dont know what he would be like without the drugs. Even when he was a teen he smoked cannabis and took other things so I dont know.

All I know is that he does things that seem to be consistent with both of those PD's. And he lies to cover himself in whatever he's doing and until hes caught with proof of what that actually was he will state it was for my benefit. ie: he's just texted me tonight to tell me he wont be calling me tonight. no plan of a call was made. I wasnt expecting one. I decipher this message to say "im not calling you like i have around this time every night this week, so incase you call me instead, dont." I wouldve taken no text and no call as his intention not to call. And been fine with it as no arrangement was made. Now Im thinking he's somewhere where he doesnt want me to call him so hes texting me just incase. So now my paranoia sets in and I hate that.

But back on topic. Yes dysfunctional could be confused with disordered. But can dysfunctional be so manipulative?

Hi Early,

I remember that my LH would tell tons of lies, it was a complete habit that he'd had for years before I met him and it persisted for years into the marriage. He had a diagnosis of ASPD but he didn't keep the traits, they lessened so much that he'd be pretty unrecognisable as ASPD if you knew him in the last couple of years of his life. But the lying/deceiving, I didn't think it was completely down to any PD, it seemed to be his lifestyle of illegality with his criminal history and the mindset that he was always going to get into trouble for making unwise choices and doing the wrong thing and therefore get a shafting for it. He was sneaky because his life needed for him to be at times. But because it was such a common thing for lies to trip from his lips, even when he wanted to be honest he'd find himself telling 'fibs' and then being really shocked at himself for the stupidity of not being honest.

He didn't have a 'Truth Disorder', he wasn't a 'Liar', he was a man who told lies habitually. I think there's something quite different with someone who has a PD - they can have 'Narcissistic Personality Disorder', be a 'Narcissist' but can it be described as being someone who behaves in a narcissistic way habitually? I think NPD is more than just habitual narcissism. My LH was habitually narcissistic - self-serving, self-focussing etc but didn't have NPD rages or project or have false self creations, rewrite history & thus deceive himself. My LH was dysfunctional at life, emotionally dysfunctional and morally corrupt and was certainly manipulative & disruptive but he was a raging addict at this time and would have had my legs broken if it meant he could get a bag when he was turkeying, unfortunately... That was the addiction speaking, not a PD though. Without the drugs and in a loving environment where he could be free to be himself, he was utterly different. I think that both dysfunctional and functional people will always have the option within themselves to manipulate to get what they want through the quickest means possible if they don't have a cut-off point from some sort of conscience/morality/faith/whatever boundary lol!

I don't know how much you still have to do with your ex but if you keep on treating him as you have been lately, watering that little seedling and tending it kindly, you'll have a better chance at a beautiful flower blossoming in him whether he has a PD or not, I reckon .

Maybe you should check out alanon instead of wondering if he has a PD. Normal folks wouldn't tolerate living with, much less staying in a relationship, with someone who's actively using.

dont know if your comment was aimed at me Euler so forgive me if not.

if it was, my ex wasnt on drugs when I was with him. He quit. I made it clear i would not be with him while he was on them. So he quit. Now Im not with him anymore I dont know if he's gone back to using or not. But while I was with him apart from the meth he was taking to help with the detox he was not on drugs, not even cannabis.

And no I wouldnt ever enter a relationship with someone who was actively using.

The following should be taken as "educated layman's opinion & interpretation".

Dysfunctional or disordered:

No NPD is not about being self-focussed. that's not even NPD, its "self-focussed behaviour" which can be caused by 101 different things. NPD can involve a certain type of self-obsession, but its not even exactly that either on an underneath level.

Being self-focussed is not NPD any more than being loud, different and attracting attention (e.g. because you happen to be different to others around you or not care what they think,) gives a person HPD.

those things are not PDs they are observed behaviour.

This is how I'll describe PD from an analytical perspective in my own words:

PDs are complex psychological defense mechanisms resulting from inability for certain developmental stages to be resolved in childhood with some features also resulting from secondary coping mechanisms put in place to deal with these problems.

They are not about how a person acts superficially but are about how a person is "put together" psychologically. PD essentially means in some way a person cannot relate to the world, self, and others as other people do, in an integrated way, which then causes problems to them self and or other people, often resulting in mental health problems.

PD will result in a degree of dysfunction cause both directly as a result of the person's inability to relate to others and the surrounding world in an integrated way and also by resulting mental health problems.

A person who shows a degree of dysfunction e.g. in relationships and friendships due to an insecure attachment style without underlying pathology of a PD, but tends to end up in relationships with the wrong people and get hurt, may seem to display erratic behaviours at times,(may get labelled BPD) as will a person who has low self-esteem and tries to compensate by acting loud or big(might get labelled HPD if draws attention to self, or NPD/AsPD if tries to pick on others or "act out".)

These things are particularly common in teenagers, and part of human development. They are part of learning to integrate with other human beings, and those whose childhoods set them up slightly less well take longer to get through these behaviours and act out worse. The more to resolve to become an adult, the worse the teenager!

[i](Teenager because its during people's teens they begin to learn how to integrate with their peers in the way adults eventually relate to each other.)

Adults can retain some of these problems and hide them if they don't find they have the skills to resolve them. Those things are not PD in themselves, and can be often resolved in the 6-12 counselling sessions given by the NHS in primary care in the UK.

This is the assumption generally taken by the NHS when taking on patients with what appear to be PDish traits. Lack of understanding of PD means the attitude is often taken that unless a person presents particularly outlandishly or puts strain on services, PD isn't considered properly.

Unfortunately, PD isn't always picked up properly, because it isn't dependant simply on external behaviour.[/i]

Attempting to dx others.

trying to dx other people who are not you with PD, or without PD, because of things that have gone on between you and them is projecting your emotions onto the other person to create a solution/explanation.

(using NPD as an example.)

when you need to feel one way or another about the person; i.e. "they are a narcissist and i am under threat/its all their fault/i think they are being detached because they have devalued me" or "they're not really a narcissist and I am harming them/i've been horrid/have misjudged them".

the person will feel they've misjudged the situation because they were trying to diagnose the other person based on their own feelings and reactions not based on objective information and underlying psychology.

This happens when a person either resorts to unhealthy ways of dealing with emotion because the other person's behaviour is confusing or sets off personal issues for them, or if the person has e.g. NPD or BPD them self and struggles to relate to their emotions in any other way.

Its a way of making sense of your own feelings through other people, for example where there are problems with insecure attachment. this can lead to people vilifying the other person to feel better about themselves or to rationalise feelings of insecurity "something is making me feel insecure, if the other person is a narcissist this explains my insecurity, so i can find a way of protecting myself."

The reason i'd say this is a specific problem for people with NPD and BPD is because:

People with NPD and with BPD blur self-other boundaries -

Disclaimer - I might be explaining this slightly wrong in some places, but i'm trying to get the gist - I haven't had conversations with 100s and 100s of people with BPD or NPD, and though I have had problems with what could be seen as secondary traits [i][b]related to the two [see DSM V] as far as i know I don't have the [exact] underlying psychology for either, so i apologise if there are errors in my explanation.[/b][/i]

If people with NPD see people as extensions of themselves, i.e. how other people act is something the person with NPD takes personally not differentiating properly between self or other, so they seek "supply" from others to create self-esteem

- at the same time they may seek to control others around them because negative interaction could have the opposite affect. I can imagine to a person with NPD, they might end up feeling people around them "should act in certain ways".

(People with BPD could also try to demand people around them act in certain ways because they are trying to avoid being triggered, and see the other person's behaviour as the cause of that trigger.)

I think people see NPD and BPD as going together in relationships(apart from it happening a lot) because people with BPD in a way see themselves as extensions of other people (becoming like the other person and mirroring them in a relationship.)

so their blurring when it comes to self and other is mirrored, the person with NPD sees others as part of them self and the person with BPD sees them self as part of others, because of this their blurred boundaries fit together.

The important part is:

If you care what PD they have on a personal, emotional level, you cannot diagnose them.

Even if you are just personally involved in the situation in any way, things can become blurred.

for example, my mum shows some unhealthy behaviour.

At times i would wonder "what label fits mum" because she would piss me the hell off so i would rage at her, and she'd wind me up until i'd throw things/break them etc (because of lack of self control, to stop me becoming violent towards her).

I was looking for a way to say my behaviour was her fault, so at that point, recognising "how disordered she was" suited me.

but in reality, what actually matters is what the other person is thinking and feeling. does it matter if she gets a label? or does it matter how she behaves and why, and how i react and why?

Its not necessary or healthy to react by diagnosing because when i realised some of the ways she was behaving i was just . it didn't bother me what label she had, it was more "WTF, how can she be doing that so subtly that I haven't noticed all these years?"

Sometimes [external] diagnosis can help people in dealing with those issues, understanding them and using that knowledge to try to relate and communicate more effectively.

---
Some things i noticed about it all, sometimes actions have consequences... (skip this if you want to stay on topic for the mo.)

I've "diagnosed" other people with PDs in the past, people who just pissed me off. I was actually reasonably adjective about it because I wasn't personally involved except finding their behaviour irritating, so while I'd give reasonably accurate interpretations I'd also get nasty and start putting down the PD they appeared to fit cause i had no reason to care and it was a good outlet for my irritation.

Unfortunately other people on this site who I didn't intend to insult or even try to diagnose in that way then thought I was insulting them because they identified with the diagnosis - which showed me how actions can have repercussions where you don't intend them to, and its possible i might rather they didn't in some cases.

While assuming everything was about them wasn't healthy, it also occurred to me if i say certain things, those things can come back to me eventually because if i tell the world "PD is:" and then people listen, they will judge me the same way. same as the time i stole something from somewhere and then came back the next time and realised i couldn't use it there cause i'd stolen it. lol

So I've decided there is no excuse for using PD as a putdown and there are plenty of other ways of putting people down that don't include damaging things for yourself or others in the process [ooh look i've developed a moral stance on something - wonder if i can get it to stick/if it goes deep enough that it will?] (i don't suppose i mind if it does.)

But when it comes to people you're involved with, attached to in any way, or have any sort of personal feeling for, diagnosis isn't really appropriate because personal feelings can impair a clear picture. I don't try to diagnose the person i'm involved with in a personal way.

apart from the fact they try to give me as muddled a picture as possible, lol and while sometimes i do wonder, it doesn't matter to me what their diagnosis is, the only thing it changes as far as i'm concerned is what label is stuck on them and maybe that might help a therapist in some ways. whatever label they got i'd still accept and support them, along with whatever diagnosis they got.

The reason i say this is because diagnosis is done by people who are impartial for a reason. its not helpful for loved ones to attempt to dx beyond "let's get some help i think there might be a problem/PD". Dx is there so a therapist can categorise a person's problem according to what issues are involved and work out how to help them best, and that's for a reason.

There are plenty of ways for a non to come to terms with their partners behaviour, rant about it, deal with their own feelings and/or move on from a relationship without needing to apply a label to that behaviour.

The only advantage of understanding they have a PD is to understand that behaviour and what their perspective might be, which let's face it, if you're leaving or ranting is useless.

Don't get me wrong, i think PD should be understood by everyone, general public etc not just drs but I also think if any of it is going to make any sense there's a need to see the difference between how that knowledge is used.

I think if people are going to relate to each other healthily, the most important part is to understand simple concepts "i feel hurt, your action hurt me" "i feel insecure because" i.e. self-other boundaries,

and when it comes to PD, "i think you need some help/therapy",

also if a person thinks they have a PD, their partner shouldn't be trying to question whether they have one or which one they have unless they're sitting down together trying to figure out how to get the person treatment and make a dr listen,

and if they intend to be with them support them, using knowledge of their disorder to try to help improve their relationship,

and if not leave for practical reasons, i.e. "your action hurt me/are harming me and i am leaving to protect myself or because it changed how i feel about you," not "because you have x PD."

"You don't have a PD because people with PD always feel ____"

Then there's the bit about "if you ever think/feel this way you can't have a PD".

At times I've invited other people to try to dx me because I wanted to be accepted as i am, so people would turn round and say "i know x thing is wrong with you, but i accept you as you are.", which is trying to get a personal need fulfilled instead of just coming out and saying "i have just about as much empathy or a pinecone, these are the implications, do you still like me?"

like it or not people are born with the desire to try to connect to a parent on some level at least, [instinctual because that connection is required for survival] and if they can't do that for some reason, that initial need remains unresolved on some level however deeply it gets buried.

In a way its hard to say whether a person with PD experiences the world so entirely differently from others because they haven't experienced it normally.

But sticking to statements like that is detrimental in a lot of ways because it means there is no room for the person to try to recover, and improvements, breakthroughs or attempts to think/feel/act differently are again met with invalidation which can block that attempt to change something or experience it differently, however small.

@ MsMeow, creativity doesn't stop you having a PD but as people[plural] i know [IRL] with [diagnosed]PD will agree, the periods of our bouts of mental illness brought on by PD mean most often suffer from creative block of some sort and struggle to actually make use of their creativity except when they're slightly better. Most people[pl] with [dxed]PD i've met [IRL] are creative in some way or other.

about me:
"I can write an emotionally healthy and objective response to almost everything, i'm not disordered. you better undx me now."
Uh huh.

If i am disordered it does not mean I am out to get you. Its also not my fault, so I don't deserve to be attacked for it.

As a person with PD-like problems, the more comfortable i feel talking openly and honestly, the more likely I am to talk.

(and for the PD-villifying nons, that would mean more likely to recover fully and less likely to cause any problems for people like them.)

who exactly are all these PD villyfying nons youre on about? Ive only come across 2 i can think of on this forum. Im certainly not one.

Yeah thanks if people are trying to make me look like an idiot, if you do you destroy the point of my post. Am I allowed to write something without it being taken off track?

My post is about COMMUNICATION
and PROJECTION
and USING DESICIONS ABOUT OTHERS TO RESOLVE THEIR OWN EMOTIONS THROUGH PROJECTION.