Telling a N that he is N....

Dove,

I'm sorry, but not surprised, to hear what happened in counseling, and continues to happen in your home. Your husband doesn't wish to be in counseling and so it will be futile. And he will become angrier and angrier that counseling isn't helping you.

A profoundly narcissistic man is extremely hard to live with, but that same man who also thinks that he carries God in his hip pocket is impossible. His entitlement knows no limit. That is why I said that the only thing I could think of that might have impact would be a rebuke from some man he holds in high esteem. But, since that can't happen, there is really nothing more to be done. The situation is impossible.

You must leave each other. This will not get better, but worse.
And your children are suffering the consequences of all this as well, as I know that you know.

So, even though I might have been capable of listening to what they were saying (they were good friends so they toned it down for my sake), I still picked up on that emotion, amplified it, and that's all it takes to trigger a rage.

So, Euler is this why every emotions whether it be fear, hurt or whatever triggers a rage? So when the kids fall down, that is why he gets angry and yells at me for "letting them fall" because he is scared of their pain, so he has to get angry? It seems that every emotion is processed as anger, is that accurate? You actually feel emotions but you do not understand them because as a child they were suppressed and repressed, so feeling anything is projected as anger?

Not exactly.

Being raised by an extremely Narcissistic parent and/or a Narcissist leads a person to be a victim of constant power dynamics. This may be just me, but for some this creates something like PTSD which is NPD.

Everybody is narcissistic. Everybody gets smug, arrogant, angry, rationalizes, etc...also people tend to forget that empathy only applies to one person's identity group. Every power group loves to define the exact life experiences of the "other" for them...so there's the barbarian, gender roles, etc under layers of oppression. To this day, many people are still voting on what rights a person should have.

Where the PTSD comes into play, is that I have an increased sensitivity to any narcissism from anybody. Its not just criticism its any negative rationalizing behavior, and I can easily see how "normal" people do all kinds of damaging things to each other on a daily basis...just they are incapable of doing such damage if they can't rationalize it away so they need a social element to it so their guilt doesn't kill them.

Being stuck in the narcissistic phase, and please picture this if you would, you're experiencing what you are from you're narcissistic parent only to go out to school where you see such power-dynamics being played out. In both cases such behavior is either dismissed or rationalized away. So, every time you see frustration on someone close it is about you and they're going to do something to you.

You're only so-called defense is to fit in whatever identity group you feel is the most convenient or most privileged at that time, while ignoring your humanity for its weakness. Everytime an ex would say I'm not being reasonable it felt exactly like I was being attacked.

As a layperson this may not be sound but I strongly believe that NPD is remarkably similar to being a war-veteran...a recent veteran could be driving, becomes a victim of slight road-rage, and he/she follows that person home to beat the smack out of him/her. The only natural safespot for me, as I saw it, was to constantly be on the offensive...and yes, I'm acutely aware of body language, and in the past even aggressive body-language was enough to set me off. In your mind, exploring your real feelings, is a luxury you cannot afford because you live in a war-zone.

Heya Euler

I always enjoy reading your posts. It's so interesting to have an inside view on this disorder. Not to hijack, but do you mind if I ask how exactly you became self-aware?

Euler,

Thank you for this insightful post - much appreciated.

well played. his little girl is growing up and is thinking with a mind of her own.

he's going to have to make some hard choices soon. wish you well, still a long road ahead.

Thanks, you have no idea how different this is, I always tried to do what he wanted to make him happy and keep the peace, but after 12 years, I realize there is no peace here, there is always something to bring about the hostility.

The situation is impossible.

You must leave each other. This will not get better, but worse.
And your children are suffering the consequences of all this as well, as I know that you know.

I have always felt this was an impossible situation, I know I need to go, I just have to figure out how. I am making plans, but it is gonna take some more time. I feel that I could just lose my mind and I am very impatient and wanting to leave immediately, which I have to keep reminding myself not to.

I notice he is trying on some level by telling me that he is sorry when he states his opinion about how my decisions are wrong. Funny thing, every decision I make is wrong, but at least he is not yelling and pointing his finger and repeating himself over and over and over and over. I don't have much faith, but he told me the other day that we are both going to be in the "poor house" if we can't work this out. It is always about money-the all mighty dollar is his focus and motivation.

Everybody is narcissistic. Everybody gets smug, arrogant, angry, rationalizes, etc...also people tend to forget that empathy only applies to one person's identity group. Every power group loves to define the exact life experiences of the "other" for them...so there's the barbarian, gender roles, etc under layers of oppression. To this day, many people are still voting on what rights a person should have.

Where the PTSD comes into play, is that I have an increased sensitivity to any narcissism from anybody. Its not just criticism its any negative rationalizing behavior, and I can easily see how "normal" people do all kinds of damaging things to each other on a daily basis...just they are incapable of doing such damage if they can't rationalize it away so they need a social element to it so their guilt doesn't kill them.

I agree that everyone is narcissistic at some level, I even agree that a there is a healthy level of narcissism. I have strong narcissistic traits and some are better since this situation, and some are worse. In a lot of ways, (and this may make no sense) I feel that the NH and me are very similar in our woundedness, but in the opposite direction. In being raised by a NM as the golden child, I was smothered and overspoiled. I didn't have a real connection but I was a part of my mother's perfect mommy/perfect daughter fantasy. I internalized and blamed myself for everything, which in my compliant people-pleasing/niceness was superficial and narcissistic. My H on the other hand was beaten and criticized for nothing and was the only child in the house who was, so he was the scapegoat, he projected and blamed everyone on the outside. Either way, we are both just adult children who were not taught anything because of crappy parents.

I also agree that PTSD plays a role. I often wondered why he was like a war-vet. He has those things that trigger and you can see the anxiety and anger building. I guess his childhood was a war, I wish he could understand that this is not just his personality as he says.

I am definitely not who I would like to be at this point in my life. As a mother, I truly am so stressed out that I can't function like a normal human being. I really need to leave. I am looking for a full time job and I am going to look at a place this week. I have no idea how I am going to afford it, but if I have to go to the state for help for a while, I guess I will. There are worse things in life than being poor.

Dove91801 wrote:I am definitely not who I would like to be at this point in my life.

there is always room to grow.

Dove91801 wrote: As a mother, I truly am so stressed out that I can't function like a normal human being. I really need to leave. I am looking for a full time job and I am going to look at a place this week. I have no idea how I am going to afford it, but if I have to go to the state for help for a while, I guess I will. There are worse things in life than being poor.

you have to play the hand you are dealt. take your time, make your plans, and when the time is ripe, make your move.

no shame in getting help from the state or the church, it is what they are there for. good luck!

I think Euler provided enormous insight into what might be going on with your husband. He is a victim . He hasn't the internal emotional integrity to do much better than he is doing.
But before you walk, give yourself a reality check.

Was this the person who you feel in love with? Who, you were going to spend the rest of your life with?
Were you the woman who fell for him? How much has he brought to your life in the form of a family?
How much do your children love him? Have you formed a family circle?
A family circle being that safe place for all to land. The place where your strengths are valued but also your faults are recognized as weaknesses that need to be worked on with the aid of your partner. The place where the full rounded individual is created. How much have you developed as an individual.

There really is a lot to lose and not just for you but for him and your children.

You need to really try and hear what he says without reacting. He claimed he couldn't look after his own children and would need help. I think that is probably true. His only method is to contain and control so he is likely to put the children in a room with the TV and feed them only if something is prepared. There they will stay till you return. This would be quite a typical response for an N type.
He is keeping them safe. To do any better than that, you would have to provide a daily routine and help him learn that, so he didn't panic. Once anything goes wrong they will be contained in the room. And that has to be OK because he has kept them safe.

Once you can anticipate what he will do, you are better able to manage your reactions appropriately.

So you could actually change tack next time you go to counseling and talk about the man you married and what you thought married life would be and how hard you find it now. Just talk from your perspective of how hard it is to understand another's perspective. You might recognize he has put you in a boat and he tries to keep you safe by forcing you to do it his way. He tries to control life rather than himself. But he might fall apart if he doesn't. Don't discount the money, it is the only leverage he thinks he has. Underneath all the outer armour, he is a scared kid inside. So when you have this conversation, you will recognize you have achieved a lot more with him than without him. That is because two can achieve more than one. Cooperate to achieve the best outcome for all of you.

Thanks for your insight margharris, I think you are a wise person.

You might recognize he has put you in a boat and he tries to keep you safe by forcing you to do it his way. He tries to control life rather than himself. But he might fall apart if he doesn't

This makes SO much sense!

He freaked out when I told him I was going to leave and I didn't care if he filed for divorce. He has kind of begged me to stay and says he really wants to try to change to make things better. I hope to stick to my guns and make sure to speak up and try to help him learn how to communicate things. I do have a place to go now and he knows I am prepared to leave if he doesn't change. Finally getting a little bit of leverage for the first time in 12 years.