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DSM-V Dissent

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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby undenied » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:10 am

anextraordinarygirl wrote:Wow, thanks for the reminder. :) I have depression, and I was starting to worry that I have NPD as well. :) I don't think I actually do have it, but I'm fairly certain its in my family. Are NPD or HPD genetically predisposed, do you know?


Yes, the current working theory of Personality Disorders is that there is some kind of genetic predisposition towards developing them, but that they develop due to abuse/neglect in early childhood. (To paraphrase.)

If you have depression, odds are you're not NPD, but your brain is looking for a way to misplace guilt on yourself. No worries. NPD seems to be one of those disorders where if you think you have it, then you don't, and if you deny you're anythin like it at all, then you are. :twisted:
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby heracles » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:51 am

undenied wrote:[quoteEveryone knows that it's really easy for normal healthy people to self-diagnose themselves with half the DSM. That's why only trained people are allowed to diagnoses. When trained, they can recognize the "whole picture" of a Personality Disorder, not just the "traits". Everyone has traits.


So I'm "not allowed" to diagnose myself? Who says? I don't need "the trained" to know I'm a covert narcissist. It's overwhelmingly obvious to me. If somebody doesn't believe I am, fine. I'm not trying to join a club, just understand myself. I can't say I'm happy, but I feel a lot better knowing what I am.
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby SBBro » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:09 pm

Keeping in mind n is insanity and no one likes an n It seems obvious to me but i might be wrong that the idea to take npd off the dsm was to prevent people being able to diagnose themselves or friends, there is treatment in the works and it can be improved with therapy. why take it off all together why not just leave it?


npd has a low occurrence rate, what is proposed is n traits, i think they are trying to avoid a generation of diagnosed Ns, if they leave it out people will refere to dsm-iv. By making it vague then people will not be able to dx unless referring to dsm-iv which would be seen as inferior especially to an N.
2012 "just anxiety"
2013 inpatient 'suicidality, MDD etc
2014 "youve been diagnosed with everything under the sun"
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby addx » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:46 pm

SBBro wrote:Keeping in mind n is insanity and no one likes an n It seems obvious to me but i might be wrong that the idea to take npd off the dsm was to prevent people being able to diagnose themselves or friends, there is treatment in the works and it can be improved with therapy. why take it off all together why not just leave it?


npd has a low occurrence rate, what is proposed is n traits, i think they are trying to avoid a generation of diagnosed Ns, if they leave it out people will refere to dsm-iv. By making it vague then people will not be able to dx unless referring to dsm-iv which would be seen as inferior especially to an N.


IMO, powerfull narcissists themselves forced to remove it so they can't be diagnosed crazy.

IMO NPD is a growing phenomena and a result of a narcissistic world environment that has come to be in recent times. IMO NPD parents ALWAYS breed NPD children. It is only lucky that a lot of narcs don't see a point in breeding. NPD husbands cause NPD in their wifes IMO. It is contagious/infectuos. First the victim is isolated and then left solely to long subtle and then less subtle abuse by an NPDer. The more the wifes self-esteem goes down, the more she is isolated the less she is worth in ego reflection and thus suffers even more abuse. The emotional empathy circuits of the wife are rendered useless by long term interaction with a narcissist and only a narcissist who can not support two-way emotional transfer. It is a guess that the brain decides to shut down empathy transfer under such conditions. Thus turning the victim into a narcissist themselves, although a slightly different kind since it is adult onset. The person still has a recollection of how it used to be but is numb, disconnected and dependant and furthermore dependant on narcissistic love as the only kind of love the victim can now experience - codependant or covert narc.

The abuse of narcissism is not just the obvious outright rage. The abuse of narcissism is a constant "aire" of tension of the narcissist weighing every word, cue, self-reflecting and taking notes. As the devaluemnet of others is a prime urge of narcissism, everything is noted and used to devalue, often in relatively casual conversations. No conversation is casual with a narcissist. This extreme tension and weighing that is always active in the narcssists mind is the real abuse. The other person learns not to trust the narcissist and that the information he gets from empathic centers is simply misleading and wrong, does the information is inhibited and the person becomes unempathic themselves. Eventually they realise they have become shadows of themselves are also run only by the id and superego, losing their own ego and others completely. Losing ability to feel content, safe, loved. Because they were really never safe around their narc and they instinctively felt that the entire time which infact destroyed the ability to feel safe. It was replaced by dependancy on the narc to feel safe.
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby Jatin » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:20 am

addx wrote:
SBBro wrote:Keeping in mind n is insanity and no one likes an n It seems obvious to me but i might be wrong that the idea to take npd off the dsm was to prevent people being able to diagnose themselves or friends, there is treatment in the works and it can be improved with therapy. why take it off all together why not just leave it?


npd has a low occurrence rate, what is proposed is n traits, i think they are trying to avoid a generation of diagnosed Ns, if they leave it out people will refere to dsm-iv. By making it vague then people will not be able to dx unless referring to dsm-iv which would be seen as inferior especially to an N.


IMO, powerfull narcissists themselves forced to remove it so they can't be diagnosed crazy.

IMO NPD is a growing phenomena and a result of a narcissistic world environment that has come to be in recent times. IMO NPD parents ALWAYS breed NPD children. It is only lucky that a lot of narcs don't see a point in breeding. NPD husbands cause NPD in their wifes IMO. It is contagious/infectuos. First the victim is isolated and then left solely to long subtle and then less subtle abuse by an NPDer. The more the wifes self-esteem goes down, the more she is isolated the less she is worth in ego reflection and thus suffers even more abuse. The emotional empathy circuits of the wife are rendered useless by long term interaction with a narcissist and only a narcissist who can not support two-way emotional transfer. It is a guess that the brain decides to shut down empathy transfer under such conditions. Thus turning the victim into a narcissist themselves, although a slightly different kind since it is adult onset. The person still has a recollection of how it used to be but is numb, disconnected and dependant and furthermore dependant on narcissistic love as the only kind of love the victim can now experience - codependant or covert narc.

The abuse of narcissism is not just the obvious outright rage. The abuse of narcissism is a constant "aire" of tension of the narcissist weighing every word, cue, self-reflecting and taking notes. As the devaluemnet of others is a prime urge of narcissism, everything is noted and used to devalue, often in relatively casual conversations. No conversation is casual with a narcissist. This extreme tension and weighing that is always active in the narcssists mind is the real abuse. The other person learns not to trust the narcissist and that the information he gets from empathic centers is simply misleading and wrong, does the information is inhibited and the person becomes unempathic themselves. Eventually they realise they have become shadows of themselves are also run only by the id and superego, losing their own ego and others completely. Losing ability to feel content, safe, loved. Because they were really never safe around their narc and they instinctively felt that the entire time which infact destroyed the ability to feel safe. It was replaced by dependancy on the narc to feel safe.


NOOOOO

First of all using HE all the time is WRONG....

There are girls also with this disorder.

Next, abused can show signs of N temporarily but not permanently. There is a situation called PTSD Post traumatic stress syndrom. That goes away with time.

The problem here is that Ns think that there is only ONE point of view and that is their and it is FINAL and that every one must think like them. But the reality is that there are people who are sane, who do not have any mental disorder, who are normal people.

So, they ( normal people) have better understanding of things and they are trying to do their best under their circuimstances.

I cant say Ns need to understand that, but I cant because they are incapable of understanding anyone else's view point.

Before others try to portray me as a covert, God etc, I must insist I am no God or anything even close to that. I am just a common man. I am only giving my opinion based on what I have learnt so far and my opinion may change/evolve based on my further understanding of this topic.
Aum Namah Shivaya
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby addx » Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:44 pm

Jatin wrote:
NOOOOO

First of all using HE all the time is WRONG....

There are girls also with this disorder.



I can't be bothered to keep writing he/she. It's your problem you need to diletantly diagnose your ex as NPD. Figure it out already.


Next, abused can show signs of N temporarily but not permanently. There is a situation called PTSD Post traumatic stress syndrom. That goes away with time.



So you're just spewing crap out as professional truth?

PTSD doesn't go away with time. Stockholm syndrome doesn't go away with time. Childhood abuse doesn't go away with time. People just find ways to cope with it. It doesn't go away. War veterans don't get a prescription for "time".

The problem here is that Ns think that there is only ONE point of view and that is their and it is FINAL and that every one must think like them. But the reality is that there are people who are sane, who do not have any mental disorder, who are normal people.

So, they ( normal people) have better understanding of things and they are trying to do their best under their circuimstances.

I cant say Ns need to understand that, but I cant because they are incapable of understanding anyone else's view point.



The problem is you trying to achieve a situation where you as a self-declared normal person have the right to invalidate anything a self-declared or diagnosed NPDer says. You ask NPDers questions and then explain to them that their brain doesn't work and they should simply listen to you.

I have a newsflash for you, your brain doesn't work.

Reading your texts for me is like watching a person plucking off legs of an insect just to see what the insect will do.
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby Jatin » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:26 pm

I can only tell my story and may be people can use it as a real life e.g.

When my relationship ended with my Ex N gf I was badly hurt but I knew one thing that she was responsible for all the problems. That she had problem in keeping relationships as she had problems with her elder bros, parents, workplace issues, she even had to change her job, she was seeing psychologist for 6 months, taking pills for depression etc.

I had very stable job and great relationships. So, I started doing research why a girl os always angry. From there I found out that it is because they want to control. I read on yahoo answers some girls admitting to this thing..

And slowly I got a point where I saw that she fit perfectly with NPD.

I lost my job because I couldnt focus on my work and made many mistakes.

But after three months and a lot of research I moved on got back to work, later got married to my wonderful wife and was perfectly happy in my life.

But I felt like I should become a psychologist and help people who are victims of Ns and help Ns to be at peace and I started studying psychology.

During the three months I used to get irritated easily, and I shpwed some signs of depression and I think I became like an N temporarly, Although I was still a lot better than most Ns but I had some similarities. But after understanding the whole tjing I was back to normal.

In fact when I saw what my Ex was going through, I was like wow, she is paying for her bad deeds.

So, I dont think that victims remain hurt forever. Feeling like a victim is weak people's choice. Strong people move on and work on making their lives happy and prosperous.

Hope it will help some people here.
Aum Namah Shivaya
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby undenied » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:26 pm

Better late than never? You guys really went off on a tangent in my absence, rather rude. Forewarning for length.


[quote=heracles]So I'm "not allowed" to diagnose myself? [/quote]
No, you are not. Only medical professionals can "diagnose". Making reasonable assumptions about one's mental/physical health is not the same as diagnosis, particularly in terms of psychology.

Who says?

Medically trained professionals, particularly the American Psychiatric Association.

I don't need "the trained" to know I'm a covert narcissist. It's overwhelmingly obvious to me. If somebody doesn't believe I am, fine. I'm not trying to join a club, just understand myself. I can't say I'm happy, but I feel a lot better knowing what I am.

Glad to hear it. I think you are still missing the point, though. (Oh well, too late for me to respond, really.)


SBBro wrote:no one likes an n

This is massively insulting and potentially hurtful to people. Narcs are people too.

why take it off all together why not just leave it?

The reason it was removed is the same reason as other formerly named PDs were removed (or rather changed to Trait Dimensions). However, NPD has remained after some "campaigning".

As a side note, I don't think the APA gives a poop about the "hurt feelings" of the individuals whose disorders were removed. Their reasoning for inclusion/removal was medical or empirical, not about validation.


addx wrote:IMO, powerfull narcissists themselves forced to remove it so they can't be diagnosed crazy.

Foolishness. Most Narcs aren't diagnosed anyway, because you have to actually go to the doctor to get diagnosed. Secondly, a diagnosis means absolutely nothing if you get up and never return to treatment - it's not like a psychotic disorder for which you can be sectioned.

IMO NPD is a growing phenomena and a result of a narcissistic world environment that has come to be in recent times. IMO NPD parents ALWAYS breed NPD children. It is only lucky that a lot of narcs don't see a point in breeding. NPD husbands cause NPD in their wifes IMO.
.......

Hooboy. This isn't the thread to argue about this, really, so I'll just say "I disagree".

Also I wish people would stop using terms like "ego" and "id". But that's another story.


Jatin wrote:First of all using HE all the time is WRONG....
There are girls also with this disorder.

Thank you.

Next, abused can show signs of N temporarily but not permanently. There is a situation called PTSD Post traumatic stress syndrom.

Indeed, even healthy individuals can use narcissistic defense or have narcissistic personality traits. (PTSD doesn't just "go away" though.)

The problem here is that Ns think that there is only ONE point of view and that is their and it is FINAL and that every one must think like them.

Just a note: I don't think this and never have. I'm well aware other people have different points of view, even if I believe mine is the "correct" one.

I cant say Ns need to understand that, but I cant because they are incapable of understanding anyone else's view point.

Again, this is the same pessimistic, finger-pointing attitude I see so much on this board. If you truly recognize NPD as a mental illness, then let's not tell people they are "incapable" of improvement.


addx wrote:It's your problem you need to diletantly diagnose your ex as NPD. Figure it out already.

(Personally I think that "victims" of NPD persons should go get their own damn board.)

The problem is you trying to achieve a situation where you as a self-declared normal person have the right to invalidate anything a self-declared or diagnosed NPDer says. You ask NPDers questions and then explain to them that their brain doesn't work and they should simply listen to you.

This has been a huge problem on the NPD board, as well as with NPD and indeed all mental illnesses in the Psych ward. Our opinions don't count cuz we're crazy. It's better with some disorders now, though.


Jatin wrote:And slowly I got a point where I saw that she fit perfectly with NPD.

Not arguing with your personal experience, since I don't know you or your ex, of course -- but we get a lot of people on this forum who say this. It is really easy to convince oneself that one's exes have all kinds of problems, and that a failed relationship is the other person's fault. I hate-hate-hate threads on this board about "my NPD ex", because they aren't helpful to anyone, including the person posting, since all they do is validate the blame-game and do nothing to help a person's breakup/healing process, as well as continuing to spread misconceptions about NPD.

During the three months I used to get irritated easily, and I shpwed some signs of depression and I think I became like an N temporarly, Although I was still a lot better than most Ns but I had some similarities. But after understanding the whole tjing I was back to normal.

Again, everyone uses narcissistic defenses sometimes. I wish people would understand this and disconnect it from NPD.


This thread was supposed to be for DSM-5 discussion, by the way.
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby MirageInTheMirror » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:28 pm

undenied wrote:This thread was supposed to be for DSM-5 discussion, by the way.

Since you're back now, do you have an update on what is actually in the DSM-V now that it's done?
What are your opinions on the final result after all that discussion leading up to it?
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Re: DSM-V Dissent

Postby coneyislandking » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:40 pm

MirageInTheMirror wrote:
undenied wrote:This thread was supposed to be for DSM-5 discussion, by the way.

Since you're back now, do you have an update on what is actually in the DSM-V now that it's done?
What are your opinions on the final result after all that discussion leading up to it?


Hi. I'm not that person but I do know NPD was kept in the DSM 5 for reasons of it being a historical diagnosis. It has some more refined criteria, but still, why is its being "historical" so important if they don't even have the balls to keep the name hysterical personality disorder. Hysteria is as historical as anything, it's one of the original mental illnesses!

And they got rid of HPD, DPD, Schizoid PD and PPD, or more they moved them into the abyss. That is only in the proposed revisions section, however. Because it's entirely speculative, they haven't the grounds to implement the new system of assessing PD just yet. It was left untouched in the main body of the text, so all ten disorders are still there as they were in DSM-IV.

I wandered into the NPD forum because my mom is a narcissist, and I would like to say that all NPD people who have children do not produce NPD children. Children of NPD's are usually dependent, histrionic or antisocial. This is because the parent has a tendency to either ignore the child (ASPD), make the child and ego extension (DPD) or do both as they see fit (HPD). People with disordered parents do not grow up to be like their parents, usually, but instead grow up to compensate for what they never got. I'm an HPD with a narcissist mother, so I just wanted to add my two cents on the accusation that NPD produces only NPD.
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