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Why do you withhold?

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Why do you withhold?

Postby EyesOpen » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:48 am

I've read that withholding sex and affection is one of the traits of a narcissist and I'm very curious as to why you do it... is it intentional and used to control, keep your partner off-balance, or because you've lost interest or is it done subconsciously?

My exN boyfriend used to withhold sex and affection but before he started doing that I could tell he was very attracted to me and our relationship was very physical, and he was always very affectionate with me... and then it just changed. He wasn't as affectionate as he used to be. At one point we went quite awhile without having sex and I tried to ask him about it but he didn't want to talk about it and I couldn't get a straight answer. But he did say he was still attracted to me.

And, he never seemed to want to have sex when I initiated... it always had to be him initiating and when he wanted it.

Also, many times we'd be watching a movie or tv and sitting on the couch and he would never put his arm around me or hold my hand... those little gestures of affection and ways to feel close. But then later on we'd be in the bedroom having sex... but why couldn't he have cuddled with me on the couch just a little while before that? It was so confusing.

I'm guessing it's about the control thing... or is the withholding part of the devaluation?
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby IndieMind » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:38 am

I do not know if I am NPD, but I withhold sex a lot...very subconsciously, probably. As for affection, I am simply not comfortable with it at all. It does not seem to mean anything to me, the way it does to my girlfriend. I would basically have to do it only for her, which is clearly not a trait of narcissists. This goes double for sending cards, letters, flowers, anything--I just cannot fathom why it means anything at all.

Having things on my schedule makes my life easier for me, and I can definitely be in the mood but not in the mood for her, so to speak. It's probably a painful thing for her, I can imagine. :/ And no, I do not mean that I cheat, but I simply don't want to have sex with her, so I don't do that, either.

I do not think it is a process of devaluing for me, but since devaluing is directly linked to power, it basically skips the middle man--I do like the control and power that it enables me to have, but it is not this simple for me. (But again, it's not that simple, because I have lots of non-NPD elements shining through here!)

Do you feel devalued as a result? Maybe it is less about you, since he states he is still attracted to you sexually/physically, and more about his own problems that prevent sex and affection? Taking it less personally with narcissists is probably safest.
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby EyesOpen » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:14 pm

IndieMind wrote:Do you feel devalued as a result? Maybe it is less about you, since he states he is still attracted to you sexually/physically, and more about his own problems that prevent sex and affection? Taking it less personally with narcissists is probably safest.

We're no longer seeing each other. He broke up with me about 6 months ago. I didn't realize he was a narcissist until after we had broken up. I never got any closure and I was left feeling confused about so many things and had tons of questions that I started doing research and started going on forums such as this one to try and get some answers and to try and make some sense of things.

But, yes I did feel devalued as a result and very hurt ... especially since I didn't know where it was coming from... well, actually I attributed it to stress, and I kept telling myself it's because he's stressed about his job, or his money situation, etc. But, then I started thinking that his feelings for me probably had changed or he wasn't as attracted to me. The real confusing thing was that it was like a switch got turned and his whole demeanor and personality changed... he sometimes would be distant, cold, moody, not as physical and affectionate with me, but with no explanation. I don't know if it has to do with the push/pull type of thing, doesn't want to get too close... getting bored, doing it to hurt me, or if it truly is something subconscious and he wasn't even really aware that he was doing it.

You make a good point about taking it less personally and that it was more about his issues. So I guess I can take comfort knowing that even if the supermodel Gisele were in my ex's bed every night he'd eventually withhold sex from her too.... :)
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby EyesOpen » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:30 pm

IndieMind wrote:This goes double for sending cards, letters, flowers, anything--I just cannot fathom why it means anything at all.

I meant to ask you in my last post IndieMind... do you usually not give your gf cards or send flowers, etc. at all or do you do it just when you absolutely have to such as a birthday? So... you’ve never seen something when you’ve been out shopping and think of her or think she’ll like it and buy it for her? Did you always feel like this… even during the “idealization” phase? Or did it change after you had been in the relationship awhile? How do you feel if she buys you little gifts or gives you a card... do you like it or do you feel uncomfortable and feel pressured to reciprocate? Just curious...
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby unreal » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:51 pm

I have no idea. I just don't feel like it sometimes. It's, in fact, very often that I don't feel like it, and when I feel that there's any kind of pressure on me to perform when I don't feel like it, I'm not even going to get an erection. Sex, at least for a sexually dominant narcissist, is really something that he has to initiate and be in control of to enjoy it. When a girl comes up to me telling me how much she needs my dick, I'll just be irritated and annoyed in 90% of cases because this is precisely something I do not want. I want to force myself on her. I want to break her will. She's not supposed to want it, only to like it when I do it, and even that is optional, really.

If you want to have sex with your narcissist, don't be blunt about it. Give him lots of supply, and when he's in a really good mood, just slowly and carefully snuggle up to him and wait for him to initiate sex. That works with me.
What we are concerned with is narcissism in a pathological sense, with self-love that serves as a cloak for self-hatred. The polarities of self-hatred and self-love are linked together in the defensive system, but the nuclear problem is the self-hatred.
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby HappyBusyFun » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:41 am

When a girl comes up to me telling me how much she needs my dick, I'll just be irritated and annoyed in 90% of cases because this is precisely something I do not want. I want to force myself on her.


Unreal - can I ask about this?

Why does a woman telling you something like this irritate you? I understand the concept of actually during sex being aggressive and dominant, but doesn't a woman telling you how much she needs you = really good supply. Most women don't go round saying stuff like that lightly to men, so a woman saying that to you indicates how much she wants you.

And I would have thought being strongly sexually desired by a woman would be good supply for a N.

Do you have any thoughts on why this particularly isn't supply? What sort of things would a woman say to you in this context that you would find good supply as opposed to irritating?
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby EyesOpen » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:19 pm

HappyBusyFun wrote:And I would have thought being strongly sexually desired by a woman would be good supply for a N.

My thoughts exactly HappyBusyFun.

Unreal, I would have thought a girl coming on to you and desiring sex with you would be one of the ultimate forms of supply. Don’t you feel good when you know someone thinks you’re attractive? Unless supply coming from sex isn’t as important to you as supply coming from her having respect for you or her thinking you’re intelligent or skilled at something, etc.??

Or is it because you’re thinking to yourself that she doesn’t really want ME or isn’t attracted to ME she’s attracted to the illusion I’m presenting to her?

Another question (see aren't you glad you decided to stick around on the forum... we need you! :) ) … so sex to you isn’t ever a way for you to express that you really like your gf or partner or show you care, or even just for the pure pleasure of it… it’s just about proving that she’ll “give in” to you and that you had the power to do that and that you can control her? My exN boyfriend was dominant (but actually I really liked that and got off on it as I’m on the submissive side) but looking back it did seem like sex with him was more about the act and his dominance over me and like he could prove that he could make me come multiple times… and not him expressing how he felt about me or that he cared for me.
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby unreal » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:57 pm

HappyBusyFun wrote:
When a girl comes up to me telling me how much she needs my dick, I'll just be irritated and annoyed in 90% of cases because this is precisely something I do not want. I want to force myself on her.


Unreal - can I ask about this?


No.

Why does a woman telling you something like this irritate you? I understand the concept of actually during sex being aggressive and dominant, but doesn't a woman telling you how much she needs you = really good supply. Most women don't go round saying stuff like that lightly to men, so a woman saying that to you indicates how much she wants you.


Because it means that she wants ME. I'm a narcissist, I'm enwrapped in protective layers of illusions. Her wanting me feels like she's implying that she tries to get me out of this protection. Undressing is kind of a symbolical act in this regard.

My current affair is a narcissist. It works with her because I have empathy for her (for the first time in my life - yeah progress!) but any non-narcissistic girl can fück off. I produce illusions. I impress. I come on to her, NOT vice versa. I mean basically, "demanding" anything from me is a dominant act in itself and a threat to my superiority and control.

And I would have thought being strongly sexually desired by a woman would be good supply for a N.


Sure. But if the woman wants me to fulfill this desire, she's putting pressure on me, which is anathema.

Do you have any thoughts on why this particularly isn't supply? What sort of things would a woman say to you in this context that you would find good supply as opposed to irritating?


How to get your N to bang you till you can't walk? Wait till he feels like it. If he has a working penis, it's bound to happen sooner or later, but I doubt there's anything you can do to make it happen faster. Maybe dress provocatively?

Don’t you feel good when you know someone thinks you’re attractive?


I don't care what people think. I feel good when they say I'm attractive, and I don't care whether they're lying because if I can get them to say it it means that I've won anyway. I don't feel good when they want me to do stuff for them.

Unless supply coming from sex isn’t as important to you as supply coming from her having respect for you or her thinking you’re intelligent or skilled at something, etc.??


Supply from sex is her behavior. When she screams and moans and trembles and sweats and pants, that is supply - but essentially this is the ultimate way of telling me that I'm skilled at something, so the dichotomy isn't really there anyway.

Or is it because you’re thinking to yourself that she doesn’t really want ME or isn’t attracted to ME she’s attracted to the illusion I’m presenting to her?


I'm impressed. Spot on. Now I get why it works with my current girl.

so sex to you isn’t ever a way for you to express that you really like your gf or partner or show you care


No. When I want to express that, I cuddle, hug and kiss her. I do that a lot more than fücking her.

or even just for the pure pleasure of it…


I don't think the act in itself is particularly pleasurable, no. The implications of it...

that she’ll “give in” to you and that you had the power to do that and that you can control her?


...are what's awesome about sex.

In general, I guess I can explain it best with a metaphor. Imagine you have a sex doll you use to masturbate. And suddenly this doll comes out of its closet and wants you to have sex with it. (yeah, "it". Know what I mean? A sex partner is "it".) Of course you'll be shocked. Dolls just aren't supposed to act on their own, are they?
What we are concerned with is narcissism in a pathological sense, with self-love that serves as a cloak for self-hatred. The polarities of self-hatred and self-love are linked together in the defensive system, but the nuclear problem is the self-hatred.
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby EyesOpen » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:39 pm

You’ve enlightened me again, unreal!

So my exN could have been having sex with me, the neighbor down the street, a sex doll… it would all be the same to him… and from your metaphor.. he considered me just an object… almost like I was a toy… something he masturbated with… it wasn’t a real connection… it wasn’t two people making love. It explains so much… but how sad…

I can understand now why he always had to be the one to initiate sex… and why I never felt a true connection and bond with him, and why he always thwarted any efforts on my part to initiate sex… it had to be on his terms, when he was in the mood. And I can see now how he probably viewed my sexual advances as pressure on him or me demanding something from him.

I have a couple of other questions… but do you mind if I PM you?

unreal wrote:Now I get why it works with my current girl.

You said you have empathy for her (since she’s a narcissist) which is something new for you (that is progress!) But does it also work because you know that she knows that what you’re presenting to her is an illusion, so you don’t feel that she’s trying to get you out of those protective layers of illusion, so you’re able to feel safer with her and more comfortable… or since she’s a narcissist too you ARE able to strip away some of the illusion with her and show her your true self… (or at least more facets of your true self) than you’ve shown with others… ??

When you’ve become self-aware are you also getting to know who your true self is or is that something you’re still trying to figure out or do you think you’ll ever know your true self? Is it too painful to try and get to know your true self?

So many questions… just tell me to shut up if I’m asking too many!! Lol! I wish I knew all this stuff when I was going out with my exN boyfriend!
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Re: Why do you withhold?

Postby expressivecreative » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:00 pm

Mine withheld, particularly when it interfered with his primary supply - usually work related. He couldn't do it because he had to work later and was afraid he would be tired after, or he didn't want to leave a party filled with "special people" to go home, even if it was late, didn't care that after a few cocktails I was in the mood.

He also seemed irritated by cuddling, etc. unless it was in the presence of others, like he wanted to show others what a good person he was. What always puzzled me was how completely incapable he was of coming onto me like men generally do - the whole idea of communicating to me that he was in mood in a non-verbal way - you know, coming over and kissing me or something - just completely escaped him. He would have done better had he just come in the room and said "time to have sex now." Instead, he would make these faces at me - they were supposed to be provocative faces I suppose - but they were rather hysterical really.

I shouldn't mock him. He was incredible in bed - he would smile while we made love. It makes sense now that my reactions pleased him and made him feel powerful. I never got enough sex out of that man. Always wanted more. (sigh)
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