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??? for Narcissists-I'm flawed, I want to be "valued" again

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??? for Narcissists-I'm flawed, I want to be "valued" again

Postby Mom2gr8guys » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:24 am

My husband (we are married for 12 years and are in our 50's) who has been diagnosed with NPD, abandoned me about 4-1/2 mo ago while I was at work. Two months later, after beginning counseling at his request, he advised me that it was not effective so we were discontinuing. Ironically, I found out that was the day or day after he met his gf - about a month later he told me he was not coming home (I did not know about the gf at the time.) Since then we have had very little contact and have begun divorce proceedings (at my initiation, I truly believe he wanted me to file first...is this typical? ) The contact we have had is mostly thru texts initiated by him - some demanding I do something, some wishing me Happy Mother's Day, some passing along family info/gossip - I ignore most of it...Until last week he had been staying in contact with my youngest son (23 yrs), but hurt and disappointed him so bad that my son is no longer replying to his texts or taking his phone calls (he raised this son and of the 6 children we have between us, was the closest to him). Last week he texted my older son's gf that he was leaving a birthday gift at my house for my 4 yr old grandson (his birthday was almost 6 weeks ago). She (they had had a good relationship) simply replied "thanks" - she has caught him in several lies, and due to an incident of verbal abuse directed at my grand-son, and his "stealing" some tools from her house that he had given my son, she is wary of a continuing relationship with my husband. He then invited her to dinner (she is 26 yrs) but did not mention my son. She (deliberately misinterpreted) replied she would need to check with my son - which made him angry. Their last contact was him telling her that she knew him and not to believe what she had been told about him. She never responded. Yesterday, I got a text from my husband that he was going to be helping a good friend of mine / ours with a home repair on his stairs today and could he stop by to get his tools that he left at the house? Since he will be working with wood and the tools that are at the house are automotive welding equipment, I decided this was just a ploy to again control me, (or take more stuff from the house) - imply he won't help my friend if I don't agree. Again, I did not respond. This friend thinks they are good friends, and a couple we frequently socialized with - he does not know how my husband complains about helping and how little he thinks of him. Since my husband has been "too busy to help" for more than 6 months, he must need something to agree to help today.

I am not sure how to react / respond to him. As my thread indicates, I would like to resume our marriage, get LOTS of counseling, and make it work, but that may not be possible, or not my choice…

Originally, when he first left he wanted me to beg him to come back but I refused - I told him I did want him back but would not beg. I decided it was time to set boundaries of what I could really live with. If I begged, I expect he would do the same thing again and that is not acceptable.

I don’t know if he still has his gf or not, sometimes I think no, since he keeps contacting either me or members of my family - even though his children and g-children live in the same city, as do his 5 siblings. He has no real friends! Or is this just wishful thinking?

It seems I am ignoring him and being mean, and trying to drive him away, but my main intention is to be strong and respected. I don’t want to give the impression that I am a “shrinking violet” and will tolerate just any behavior. When we have had contact either via text or in person, I have been looking attractive, confident, happy and giving the impression that life goes on. Since I was VERY dependent upon him to take care of the housy things - mowing, maintenance, trash ...this has been difficult, but I have not contacted him for directions on how to work stuff around the house and am managing to do a passable job. Does he respect me for this, or is this just an indication / proof that I don’t need / want him?

I guess I believe my actions would be good for us, if we were able to resume our marriage, and if we are not, I will have kept my self respect, dignity, and learned some new things and gained more confidence - none of which are a bad thing. Any thoughts?

Other questions:
* Why so much texting (he always says he hates it) - I figure it is a way to avoid emotional contact?
* I assume he is hurting my son, friends, contacting my son’s gf (while making sure I know about his actions) in an effort to hurt or get a reaction from him. He knows I would protect others before myself so they are a better target. Would you agree, and does this mean he does really hate me or just wants some sort of attention? And if so, what do I do that is positive for both of us?
* I have also talked to a couple of his co-workers, and they have said his behavior is becoming a little more eractic and extreme. He has also been getting very quiet lately, which they interpret as being up to something / or plotting something. Should I be concerned?

Sorry this is so long - Thanks for any insight!!! It is appreciated (I think :) )
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Re: ??? for Narcissists-I'm flawed, I want to be "valued" again

Postby Euler » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:38 am

This is completely out of character for me and I can't believe I'm saying this, but he doesn't sound like he's that aware of himself. If that's the case, you should probably continue to plan your life without him. Idk, my pop's has serious narcissistic traits (not diagnosed but ya never know) and I came out worse than he did (i've been diagnosed as NPD). Many of your answers can be answered through 3 things:

1) read posts here, by folks just like yourself; "victims"....you'll see a pattern.
2) The overwhelming majority of us DO NOT have empathy, I can't emphasize this enough. You probably do mean something to him, but nothing is holding him to it. For example, and this gets me every time: I may think I'm attached to someone I "care" about, but the second that person dies, moves, experiences anything horrible,gets angry, etc it never ceases to shock me. Sincere emotion displays of neediness repulse and disgust me; the second I see it I cringe. I have a moral set, but again, nothing holding me to it. I can lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, etc and never feel bad period.
3) from your narrative he doesn't seem to care.

The empathy thing can be worked with if he's really aware of his situation and seems to care (in this case going on a full time job actually trying to make himself care, even though he knows he really doesn't. In a sense, working on placing long-term value to you because you should have value to him. Instead of the minute-by-minute value if you do what he says).

Idk, you sound like my mom. Maybe that's why I posted. Regardless, you have 2 grown sons, at least one grandkid, and possibly more in the future. Despite the fact that you spent a good portion of your life with this guy, are you willing to burn 3 relationships with other guys to save him?
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Re: ??? for Narcissists-I'm flawed, I want to be "valued" again

Postby sum1 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:37 am

jake8 wrote:2) The overwhelming majority of us DO NOT have empathy, I can't emphasize this enough. You probably do mean something to him, but nothing is holding him to it. For example, and this gets me every time: I may think I'm attached to someone I "care" about, but the second that person dies, moves, experiences anything horrible,gets angry, etc it never ceases to shock me.


What precisely never ceases to shock you? The bad things? Or your reaction, or lack of reaction to the bad things?

jake8 wrote:Sincere emotion displays of neediness repulse and disgust me; the second I see it I cringe.


Yes, this is the way I used to feel about displays of weakness or softness in myself.

If you destroy your delusions of grandeur, you will probably find that all your shame and disgust for these vulnerabilities, etc. fade away quickly. In my case it happened at a very sharply defined moment, at which point there was a great sensation of freedom.

jake8 wrote:I have a moral set, but again, nothing holding me to it. I can lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, etc and never feel bad period.


Me too, except that I can feel sorry for select victims. No guilt, etc. however, even after I lost the delusions of grandeur.
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Re: ??? for Narcissists-I'm flawed, I want to be "valued" again

Postby Mom2gr8guys » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:54 pm

Hi Jake8 - Thanks for being "out of character" and replying.. I appreciate it!!!

This is completely out of character for me and I can't believe I'm saying this, but he doesn't sound like he's that aware of himself.

What do you mean that he is not that aware of himself? He knows that he has been diagnosed and that he basically has all of the traits VERY strongly. He denies it and says he only has some of the tendancies. Is that being self aware (or in his case in denial) or is it something he "feels" inside?

You also said that you have a moral set - but nothing holding you to it? Do you mean you have morals or standards for others but can violate these standards for yourself and justify it? He has always said "he can't stand liars" or thieves, but regularily "practices" both of these actions.

And lastly what do you mean by "You probably do mean something to him, but nothing is holding him to it." What would hold him to the feeling, or is that what NPD is all about - that sufferers lack the ability to connect to others? If this is it, then the holding him to me, would have to be from something that he needs, like money, status...Am I even close???

I am continuing to go forward in my life without him, however!!!

Again thanks SO much for taking the time to answer and explain stuff to me!!!
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Re: ??? for Narcissists-I'm flawed, I want to be "valued" again

Postby Euler » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:56 pm

sum1: lol, yeah what surprises me is the complete lack of emotion when something happens. At the same time I never felt surprised either. I'm sure you could relate to this perfectly.
Those illusions are tricky aren't they? They've been busted and I relate anything emotional to running. I smoke a pack a day and haven't ran since the Army (a decade ago). If I run now I guarantee I could only do 200 meters tops. Slow exposure in a way, but the last thing I want is to go to the Olympics for Track and Field (so to speak).

mom2grtguys: so far from my experience, awareness seems to be in layers. You can have the capability for introspection and choose not to use it (everybody does this to some extent). A simple example would be a person that gets angry at his/her partner for something they've done (shame in not doing the right thing, only to get angry at the realization that his/her actions did harm. Person recoils and refuses to recognize his/her part, then responds with anger to the said partner). A more extreme case could be someone that has a pervasive life pattern of, idk, let's say marriage. We all know people like this. They've deluded themselves into thinking that they "know" men/women perfectly yet they've been divorced 4 times. Then there could be alcoholism, where the victim just isn't capable of seeing the destruction in their lives.
Then you have an honest PD. I'm not an expert but I can honestly say that I was naturally incapable of introspection. That was something that I had to learn years ago. In this sense, normie's and many others have this but stop at some particular point. I did not have this at all at first.
How does this relate to Narcissism? Think about it...what all of us Narc's can agree on is that early on in life we learned damn well that laying claim to any emotional needs is a very bad thing, as it will be met and reciprocated by humiliation. In a sense, empathy is destroyed in infancy only to be followed by the arrested development of any emotional capabilities. This leads to a pattern of a semi-conscious full time eradication of the human residual (emotional needs, state, etc) as weak.
The result is a keen intellectual capability (as everything is intellectualized to a point) with the illusion of god-like freedom. As sick as it is a proper analogy is Nazi Germany. Where the adult, false self, are the Nazi's and the emotional, human self is the Jew. The more the Jew is exterminated the greater this freedom. Of course you're not really conscious of any of this. You don't really think you hate intimacy. You think you have no fears. In fact, your wife/husband is a nag, your coworkers are morons, and the world is out to get you. Why do you think this? You are repulsed by your weaknesses so you project them onto others (this explains why your husband can't stand liars), and you have a finely tuned radar for any perceived insult. To top it off you don't trust anybody.
I was diagnosed months ago, but I've only come around in the last month or so. Before, the diagnosis was intellectualized just like everything else.
As far as your other question regarding the moral base. That's just a lack of empathy. I can't speak for the others, but I've tried to care about others throughout life just incapable of really going there. This isn't the same as apathy, as binaries aren't realistic. My ex is a great example. Sure she meant "something" to me, but she was an object in the end. She was my favorite object, and of course, I'm rare in the case that I fully recognized her having boundaries. So, I went as far as I could with "caring" for her and I respected this many a time but in the end I could cheat on her and not think twice about it. Being a small campus, if I did, I would have lost her. In a sense, she and the other girls were like everything else. I just viewed my ex with as much value as my computer (my favorite object by the way) and the other girls to idk, a banana. This doesn't necessarily mean I'd treat people as such all the time, but if they've outlived their usefulness I would toss them aside. So,if he's been with you this long you are indeed most likely his favorite object. Like a childhood blanket that he brings with you. However, like a blanket its natural for him to leave you somewhere and chase another shiny object if it comes along only for him to go back to his blanket. Don't feel to degraded by this. My way of processing is just different from yours. This is where I differ from some. I don't believe empathy can grow spontaneously (its not a plant) and in the end both action and intent is what counts, with action being first. Much of what I'm doing now is focusing on placing more consistent value to people instead of tossing them aside as I see fit.

Assuming he does as I have done and is putting forth the effort would you feel content in your relationship knowing that he's been beating himself really trying to care for you and is doing all the right "husband" actions consistently but just cannot feel the same as you do? That's the money question right there. Also, chances are you and the kids are most likely the only thing that makes him "feel" remotely human (thus according to Webster, he actually "loves" you in a bizarre way). I would really do some soul searching on this one.



Long, too long, I know but you had some serious questions and I wanted to give you the serious response that you deserve.
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