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NPD is not a Mental Illness

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NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby dahlia1 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:17 pm

Upon reading various threads, I see that there's some confusion about this. Having a personality disorder is not equivalent to having a mental illness. A PD is an abnormal character. Like being born without an arm. It's not an illness that can get better over time, it's a condition that can be accomodated to how normal life lives..... if one really really wants to accomodate themselves to normal life.

This is why in no court can your defense be "I have a PD, therefore I'm not held responsible..." A deficit in character does not an illness make.
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby EchosWiserSister » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:16 pm

That's absolutely right.
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby New Position » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:14 pm

I'd say it is a mental illness, just a very deep rooted and pervasive one.

Saying it isn't a mental illness and that it is just one type of 'personality' makes a few assumptions- chiefly that it is inherently part of you- that you are born with it- and, more importantly, that nothing can be done about it. Are you born with it? No, but it certainly develops in the very early years as a result of missing certain developmental stages. Can anything be done about it? It depends on the type and how severe it is but potentially yes for some- it is a continuum too- it ranges from severe to more mild.

I agree it doesn't preclude someone from responsibility- although I think its hard to blame people who have been abused all their lives who then go on to commit similar horrible crimes.

I suppose this is all semantics though. Is it a mental illness? I'd say yes. I don't think it matters what you call it, although I'm not sure its correct to think its part of your personality in the same way that some people have 'sociable, witty, ditsy' personalities- and therefore its not a mental illness on that basis. Its not who you are, its who you're not. Can that be changed- I hope so.
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby Euler » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:44 am

P.D's are different personality types. The "disorder" is merely rooted in the fact that the "normie" type(s) personality greatly outnumber the others. The missing arm theorem would be correct if it were replaced with an arm on the back or 4 arms instead of two. Every single P.D. has as many assets as they're are defects, if you want to include the fallacious assumption that anything deviating form the norm is sup-par. That's a defect of the normie personality archetype. How do you think N's and sociopaths get away with so much for so long? If used correctly and managed an N, or a malignant N would be a superior lawyer or political leader than a normie. It seems more like people with P.d's are more pigeon-holed to completely dominate in one are of work, and life (given the social situation is situated as such; ex_ N's in Nazi germany would have excelled there) while normies are just okay at everything. Ind. talents are completely different.
The problem seems the normie's dominance over society. They make the rules and the social norms, thus the "deviant" aspect of P.d's.
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby New Position » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:55 pm

jake8 wrote:P.D's are different personality types. The "disorder" is merely rooted in the fact that the "normie" type(s) personality greatly outnumber the others. The missing arm theorem would be correct if it were replaced with an arm on the back or 4 arms instead of two. Every single P.D. has as many assets as they're are defects, if you want to include the fallacious assumption that anything deviating form the norm is sup-par. That's a defect of the normie personality archetype. How do you think N's and sociopaths get away with so much for so long? If used correctly and managed an N, or a malignant N would be a superior lawyer or political leader than a normie. It seems more like people with P.d's are more pigeon-holed to completely dominate in one are of work, and life (given the social situation is situated as such; ex_ N's in Nazi germany would have excelled there) while normies are just okay at everything. Ind. talents are completely different.
The problem seems the normie's dominance over society. They make the rules and the social norms, thus the "deviant" aspect of P.d's.


NO- they are not different types of personality to the normal personality in the way you are saying they are. Personality disorders lack a self entirely- they lack a real, integrated personality if you will. Calling them 'personality disorders' is a little confusing in that way. I assume they have this name because they pervade every aspect of the person- their thoughts, feelings, behaviour etc. but its not correct to think they are a type of 'personality' in the same way that normal people are described as having this or that personality (witty or kind or whatever). They have no real personality- no self.

People with personality disorders may think they have advantages but this is part of the grandioseness of the disorder. The traits- perfectionist, workaholic, people pleasing, unemotional- are helpful in certain industries- ones that require a lack of emotion, real human interaction or reward superficial charm- but they are hardly real advantages and almost always trip the person up in the end. Look at Belesconi- the Italian leader- I guess he's successful in one way- but hes lied, cheated, changed laws, backrupt his companies, taken money from the mafia, insulted people to get to where he is. This isn't real success or real power as much as NPDs think it is. I know the feeling of thinking it makes you special or extra talented but it only does in the short term and its a trick of the mind...
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby Serendipity » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:20 pm

New Position wrote:
jake8 wrote:P.D's are different personality types. The "disorder" is merely rooted in the fact that the "normie" type(s) personality greatly outnumber the others. The missing arm theorem would be correct if it were replaced with an arm on the back or 4 arms instead of two. Every single P.D. has as many assets as they're are defects, if you want to include the fallacious assumption that anything deviating form the norm is sup-par. That's a defect of the normie personality archetype. How do you think N's and sociopaths get away with so much for so long? If used correctly and managed an N, or a malignant N would be a superior lawyer or political leader than a normie. It seems more like people with P.d's are more pigeon-holed to completely dominate in one are of work, and life (given the social situation is situated as such; ex_ N's in Nazi germany would have excelled there) while normies are just okay at everything. Ind. talents are completely different.
The problem seems the normie's dominance over society. They make the rules and the social norms, thus the "deviant" aspect of P.d's.


NO- they are not different types of personality to the normal personality in the way you are saying they are. Personality disorders lack a self entirely- they lack a real, integrated personality if you will. Calling them 'personality disorders' is a little confusing in that way. I assume they have this name because they pervade every aspect of the person- their thoughts, feelings, behaviour etc. but its not correct to think they are a type of 'personality' in the same way that normal people are described as having this or that personality (witty or kind or whatever). They have no real personality- no self.

People with personality disorders may think they have advantages but this is part of the grandioseness of the disorder. The traits- perfectionist, workaholic, people pleasing, unemotional- are helpful in certain industries- ones that require a lack of emotion, real human interaction or reward superficial charm- but they are hardly real advantages and almost always trip the person up in the end. Look at Belesconi- the Italian leader- I guess he's successful in one way- but hes lied, cheated, changed laws, backrupt his companies, taken money from the mafia, insulted people to get to where he is. This isn't real success or real power as much as NPDs think it is. I know the feeling of thinking it makes you special or extra talented but it only does in the short term and its a trick of the mind...


Well said New Position.

PDs are behavior patterns that cause serious problems with relationships and life in general. They are regarded as long-standing, inflexible, and maladaptive traits which impair social and sometimes occupational functioning but do not impair contact with reality, and consequently are not true mental illnesses.

NPD is one of the lesser understood PDs and is quite interesting because one of its hallmarks is the absence of an important basic human characteristic...empathy. The only PD I've encountered where the disordered person sometimes believes his PD is an advantage is NPD.

I work with many patients with varied PDs and I have yet to meet one who truly feels good about themselves. While a limited few may find success or even greatness in life, they never feel the basic happiness of living. It is NOT a fun thing to have a PD.
"Battle not with monsters
lest ye become a monster
and if you gaze into the abyss
the abyss gazes into you."

-Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby New Position » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:39 pm

Thanks.

I do understand that feeling though of thinking it makes you special and better at some things. As a bit of a narcissist- when things are going well they can sometimes goes so ridiculously well that you think you've discovered some sort of better way to act than normal people. But more often than not it feels like a massive disadvantage- you're basically always alone, even when you're with people- the difference between you and others is so apparent that you can't kid yourself its a good thing.

The problem I have- which you may be able to help me with seredipity- is knowing when you are being real and knowing when you are putting on a facade? Sometimes its obvious that your faking it, but at other times you feel yourself when you are having fun with people- but then I worry is this me or is this the narcissist in me? Its so hard to say. Sorry tangent!
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby Leviathan » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:10 pm

People with personality disorders are not mentally ill because they are aware of the consequences of their actions.
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby Euler » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:28 am

That is an illogical argument. To make it simplistic normalcy is dictated by people without P.d's, mental illness, alcoholism, etc. Personality traits or characteristics your argument revolves around two points: the "Normie" is the basis of superiority and the "Normie" can fully comprehend the "other" (where the other is the un-normie. Both are false. the Normie is the mean, and with this normies make the unforgiving assumption that normalcy is superior in every aspect of life and field of discipline (work). The second is equally false, as the terms projections, rationalization, etc spill forth. As a Narcissist I make no such assumptions. Not having empathy I assume the Normie (my "other) to be nothing like me.
Great people of history almost always had something: Alexander the Great, Mao, Chruchill, Stalin, the list is endless. Alcoholics tend to be, at one point, at the top of the food chain in their fields. This erasing of data and justifying assumptions by confusing the Mean with Superior is truly a more thorough lie than anything I can make. I fully recognize that I have a collective sense of self and I'm using it to my advantage. Yet normies, under my countless observations, are deluded by their assumptions as they are never questioned. Even the literature's use of "projection" and other terms is blatant marginalization of the Others' realities as not worthwhile. In Economics, physics, medicine, and the like such assumptions would be torn apart in any undergraduate paper. It's not acceptable there and its not acceptable here.

You simply cannot give a cookie cutter example of a P.D. going wrong to argue that it has no advantages. You're still using the normie realities to compare others' realities. I'm perfectly fine without empathy, but normies cannot comprehend this thus the assumption of inferior or "lacking" is made. Since I lack empathy and many other emotions I can easily use any theory an apply it perfectly in a context where it may be applicable. Normies will have a feeling pertaining to such a theory and I can see their minds shut at further application. The point being only the person can know exactly what talents and aspects are problematic and helpful. Each personality trait, type, etc needs to be judged as a function of itself not in relation to the mean.That's like an argument comparing cultures with different value sets and that perpetuates the bias against P.d's. Now making the argument that P.d's allow complete utter dominance in a couple of fields while failing at the others is perfectly sound.

Being cerebral and living without the protection of normacly, I've had to develop a keen introspection. No social norm, theory, or action is considered sacred from analysis. Lacking empathy, I have no problems questioning certain "humanitarian" practices for further analysis. I've also developed a mask, which has served me well. The proof lies in the fact that I haven't been detected yet, and if I have it wasn't obvious. My parents and ex-gfs have no clue. I had no clue until recently. So, "a little narcissistic" is a similar to saying a little pregnant. In the end, you're actually making an argument that is just as offensive as saying a man can fully comprehend what is to be a women (the other) and feeling qualified to define the feminine.
At this rate you're probably going to dismiss my argument on the grounds that since I'm the one with a P.d. I must be day dreaming. This will prove my point correct. Not to mention that taking this line of reasoning is exactly like how misogynists used to dismiss early Feminists as "emotional". Also, please look at your argument and read the justifications used for labeling homosexuality as a mental illness or why women cannot vote. Your language is strangely similar. I don't lie half as much as normies and I'm nowhere near as arrogant to develop vast layers of social norms based off of unchecked assumptions. Perhaps this is why therapy is/has been almost a complete failure for people like me. I've never had the chance to actually and truly be listened to. It is interesting that when therapists thought I was depressed, they treated me as a function of myself. They looked at how the depression wasn't working for me. When Narcissism was diagnosed, suddenly I became a function of the "normie". I was no longer looked at. Instead I was treated in relation to things I should want since that's what normie's want and think. What if I don't want certain things and never will? The issues I wanted to look at immediately became irrelevant. In the end I leave and the self-righteous therapist gets to congratulate him/herself on the great job he/she did and state I did not want to "change". They werent' listening to me at all, I was an "idea" of a specimen of sub-par humanity.
When I lie, manipulate, or harm I do so blatantly. I do not need to lie myself to ease my conscious like normies do. There is nothing superior about you. I'm just now learning we are equally of the same worth. Do you dare to disagree with me?
Last edited by Euler on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NPD is not a Mental Illness

Postby Serendipity » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:20 am

jake8 wrote:At this rate you're probably going to dismiss my argument on the grounds that since I'm the one with a P.d. I must be day dreaming. This will prove my point correct. Also, please look at your argument and read the justifications used for labeling homosexuality as a mental illness or why women cannot vote. Your language is strangely similar.


No jake, I don't dismiss it and I kind of understand your argument. It's a bit similar to people who have children and can't dream of a life without them. But if they had been unable to have children...they would probably have still had perfectly wonderful lives.

Homosexuality is no longer classified as a disorder. But your comparison using both homosexuality and women not being able to vote leaves out one important fact: Neither homosexuals nor voting women derive pleasure in intentionally victimizing {hurting} those that love them.

So until the day that a N discovers a way to obtain NS that doesn't involve leaving the "walking wounded" in his path....his value set will most likely never be accepted by society.

P.S. I have never EVER thought of narcissists as inferior or myself superior. It doesn't even factor into the equation. I have noticed though, that a very successful narcissist does not appear to enjoy life as much as a mediocre "normie."
"Battle not with monsters
lest ye become a monster
and if you gaze into the abyss
the abyss gazes into you."

-Friedrich Nietzsche
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