Sub-types of NPD.

I just found this intriguing dissertation. It appears to provide a good overview of the evolution of thought regarding narcissism.

He mostly discusses two subtypes classed as overt and covert.

Speaking of Millon, here's the working link to his diagram of the narcissistic personality:

Functional and Structural Domains of the Confident/Narcissistic Personality

lol... I'd say the latter 3 have applied to me at one time or another

Deadratt - thanks for the link to Michael Holdren's paper; I have just read the first thirty pages of it. It brought to mind a recent session I had with a psychotherapist employed by the university at which I am currently a part time student. We talked about personality disorders, and I expressed scepticism about the validity of the classification in DSM IV, because I could see quite plainly, elements of all three 'clusters' in my own disordered personality. She readily agreed, saying her view was that personality disorders are deeply embedded maladaptive 'scripts' that people develop, hold on to, and live by. Each person will forge their own unique 'script', formulated as a result of painful early life experiences, in the context of their individual neurological makeup. Hence it doesn't really make sense to try to erect a taxonomy of mutually exclusive, separate personality disorders (and this comes through in places in Holdren's thesis). Instead, we should say there are a number of recognisable elements which are commonly incorporated into people's scripts, but each person will have their own unique blend in their personal script. Have you come across this viewpoint, and what is your own view?

cheers
Paul

Hey Paul

That's a really interesting viewpoint and I'm sure it must have some validity - human beings are so complex aren't they and of course everyone's defences and motivations are different. Username feels there is also a genetic predisposition towards PD's and that must have some influence too?

From my own perspective I had battled for some time to find the 'right' fit of PD's for my ex partner. Whilst he has many of the hallmark traits of Covert Narcissism, he has also been in trouble with the law many times (since we were children in fact), has broken probabtions, is a drug user and is very deceitful and untrusting. I think looking across the spectrum of the Cluster B 'disorders' he could (on occasion) fit all three. At first I found this confusing (my brain wants to put him into one category and keep him there - I think it makes me feel more 'in control' for some reason).

Perhaps it is like an individual who has a problem with food:- they may become anorexic, bulimic, binge eat or go through a variety of all three positions during their life. They may even exercise manically. At the root of the problem though is the food? That being the case - what do you think is at the root of the cluster B disorders? Any ideas?

Normal? wrote:Perhaps it is like an individual who has a problem with food:- they may become anorexic, bulimic, binge eat or go through a variety of all three positions during their life. They may even exercise manically. At the root of the problem though is the food? That being the case - what do you think is at the root of the cluster B disorders? Any ideas?

They are probably too complex to be boiled down to one thing, but my vote goes to attachment. Human bonding. Love. Whatever you'd like to call it. My understanding is that most of the personality disorders are chiefly evidenced in interpersonal relationships.

Similarly, you can't boil down an eating disorder to a problem with food (no pun). An addiction to the pleasure induced by food might be a component of bulimia, but anorexia is much more about self-image which has become predicated upon physical appearance. It's been argued that it can be a form of self-injury and -punishment. The anorexic is typically an obsessive perfectionist. Food is involved only as it relates to metabolism, esp. lipid production, thus relating to appearance. There might be an OCD-type anxiety component.

deadratt wrote:They are probably too complex to be boiled down to one thing, but my vote goes to attachment. Human bonding. Love. Whatever you'd like to call it. My understanding is that most of the personality disorders are chiefly evidenced in interpersonal relationships.

They are evidenced most obviously in interpersonal relationships because that is the most directly observable aspect of a personality. But the fundamental disorder is lack of a stable sense of self. Attachment and interpersonal issues are just one part of the problem, the bigger problem is that a PD personal struggles with self-identity and can't know himself very well. It's impossible because he doesn't have a single stable personality, his instability makes him act like different people depending on state of mind. You could almost say it's a little bit like a mild form of multiple personality disorder, where different parts of your personality come and go (although unlike true MPD the personal still has a single continuous consciousness)
I think that's one of the fundamental causes of attachment issues that PDs have. Being in familiar, comfortable place surrounded by people and family and things you are comfortable with can eliminate a lot of the stresses that fling the unstable personality around. Having enough control of his surroundings to keep things stable makes it easier to deny the unstable personality, because external stability causes somewhat improved inner stability for as long as it lasts. Workoholism and serious hobbies can help too, I think of all these things as "anchors" that help me remember who I am without drifting too far into insanity.

deadratt wrote:Similarly, you can't boil down an eating disorder to a problem with food (no pun).

Hey Deadratt

I was thinking more that the psychological problems are expressed through a relationship with food - and wondering which 'vehicle' NPD might use to do the same? I think Sfguy is right - it is in interpersonal relationships that NPD is most obviously manifested isn't it? They may be the 'conduit' through which NPD expresses itself.

sfguy75x wrote:It's impossible because he doesn't have a single stable personality, his instability makes him act like different people depending on state of mind. You could almost say it's a little bit like a mild form of multiple personality disorder, where different parts of your personality come and go (although unlike true MPD the personal still has a single continuous consciousness)

This is largely the 'root' of the problem I think. The lack of a 'stable' personality - and the awareness of this lack possibly - is at the core of NPD. It is also very common with Substance Abuse - in this area they refer to it as having a 'plastic personality' which can change like the wind, dependent on circumstance. I wonder if it is only the most self-aware Narcissists that realise the lack of correlation between what they say/think and their behaviour - or if they are all conscious of it to some degree. If so I expect that it is extremely frustrating and disorientating. I also wonder if the gap between the true and false self becomes more obvious as a Narcissist ages and recognises the 'flip-flopping' between one kind of behaviour and another. What I do know is that when this 'gap' is pointed out (especially by one of those 'anchors') there is one of only two responses:- deep sadness or rage. Followed by self-justification, rationalisation and the total disregard for the truth. It must be exhausting and disturbing in the extreme. If you don't know who you are - and worse, if you recognise you don't - it must be an awful way to live.

I think this is based on Sam Vaknin's website. He points out there can be two distinct personality types in narcissists.
-Somatic type: Obsessed based around beauty, ideal looks and so forth.
-Cerebral type: Values their knowledge to an extreme.

Both characteristics can be present within the narcissist, but one may be more dominant than the other.