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Narcissists are emotionally between 6 and 12 years old

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Narcissists are emotionally between 6 and 12 years old

Postby perfectlynotperfect » Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:06 am

Narcissists are emotionally about 10 or 12 - keep this in mind and it explains nearly every behavior posted on this forum. This helped me more than anything.

Mine was about 12 (a young 12) and my mom was about the same.
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Postby shivers » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:57 am

In all seriousness I think you are being quite generous with the age 12.

Narcissism is at it's highest in all of us at the age of 6.

It becomes a problem and evident when the young adult shows signs of not growing out of their narcissism. Through interaction and experiences with other adults, narcissisim settles down into an acceptable and what would be classed a normal level by early adulthood.

People with very strong N traits and with a PD are forever stuck in that 6 - 12 year age gap, it can't be reversed.
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Postby digital.noface » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:51 am

I don't think this is so bad. I mean, most people are happiest in their childhood, no? Also, I'm not sure about emotional development, but I believe our intellectual peak is about the age of 16, after that you can really only hope to maintain what you have.
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Postby shivers » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:24 pm

Dear Tinkerbell,

I can see that Alanon and AA have worked wonders. I'm totally convinced they have wonderful systems in place to re-build people's self-esteems and get them out of alcohol dependency, and I am so happy for you that you've found so much wisdom with them.

But I can't help but think there's a minor detail being left out in your theory/ies. True NPDer's DO NOT have alcohol or substance abuse problems. It is not documented that the medical community has witnessed that NPD often appears alongside substance abuse, it does not show up as part of the criteria, nor is it documented that a high percentage of alcholics or substance abusers have N traits, let alone NPD. But it is witnessed and documented that NPD often presents with verbal, emotional and physical abuse, which is often well hidden behind closed doors.

How can they live grandiose lives if they are druggies and bums drinking themselves senseless? If they have a minor problem with cigarettes or alcohol they will recognise and fix themselves up quick smart. They may dabble with cocaine to be seen in the right circles perhaps, but unless they actually do circulate with the famous their only option to obtain drugs would be from the seedy parts of town, which is not what they fantasise about.

Personally, I can never see an NPD person becoming a sponsor in AA organisation. I just can't see it. They don't have the empathy to help someone else better their lives. NPD's are all about bettering their own lives and in many instances this comes at a cost to others (those closest to them).

I'd be very unbelieving of any therapist who says he/she witnesses NPD'ers recovering 'all the time.' I just can't help but think 'balderdash' to that and wonder if the therapist is in fact NPD themselves - spinning tall tales.

It is a documented fact that people with NPD are extremely reluctant to be treated in therapy, and also if they do even start to make some headway into the true source of their inner emptiness and blackness the treatment can make them worse. Remember, many NPD's are psychopaths too. Pathological lying is common to both. In nearly all cases, the NPD person will cease treatment, and this can often be at the expense of the therapist who may have even been reported by the patient for bad conduct etc., I really can't see a person diagnosed with NPD even walking across the threshold of an AA meeting, they'd think themselves far too high and mighty to mingle with the 'addicted'.

Sam Vaknin milks the victim role because that is what NPD's truly honestly without a doubt believe they are. With them, it really is a case of "nothing wrong with me, it's just everyone else". They are so self-absorbed they cannot see the harm and destruction they do within relationships (personal or professional). That's why so many of them end up in jail. They are above the law! If their relationships split it's always the other person's fault. If they get the sack, it's the bosses or corporations fault. If they fail a course, it's the stupid lecturers or course content fault. They will do whatever they believe they can get away with without being caught. But if they do get caught, it's the law that is wrong, the rules are stupid, or everyone is not seeing it from their point of view, so they must be right.

I fully believe your ex has *some* strong N traits, but given his great recovery like you have described, I'd doubt he was ever diagnosed with PD though. He's done so well by the sounds of it.

But by your own admission, you say your current hubby is never going to recover. That in itself is saying something. He quit, and if he starts again, he will quit again. Therapy to him is an attention seeing device. "Ooooh, look at all these people here to discuss my problem." type thing. Also he'll go to appease those around him if he sees his NS dwindling and he can use it as a tactic to try and regain it back.

My partner is a serial counselloraholic. He goes, it's attention seeking to him, nothing more, just a band-aid to show 'hey, look I'm going to counselling, so I'm trying.' But it's all a game. A game to have others think he's the victim. A game to drag me along, a game to outsmart the counsellor. "Look at me showing no empathy or understanding, shove that in your pipe and smoke it, counsellor." That's the type of thing he does.

And more importantly it fits in with all the readings I've done about NPD. I read all this stuff, then I watch my partner and it fits like a glove. I can see it in action.

I know NPD has only been refined and officially ranked as an all pervasive PD since about 1983, but Narcissism has been recognised and documented since ancient Greek times.

I believe before NPD became more popular now than it was in the 60's or 70's and even the 80's and 90's that these 'men' were simply labelled abusers. That is what they are in relationships. They verbally, emotionally, psychologically and physically abuse and control and isolate their partners. NPD and abuse is one and the same. My experience with Domestive Violence counsellors who have been around since the beginning of women's shelters when asked about recovery and change for these men, all silently purse their lips and shake their heads. As disappointing as it is, they say, they've never actually seen any do a 100% turn around that has lasted for the rest of their lives. They have all remained abusers and controllers to some extent.

I found your post a bit contradictory in places. At one end you have held the flame for NPD recovery, and then later stating that a lot of NPD's don't recover.
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Postby shivers » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:10 am

Yes, Tinkerbell, I think we can, and I think it is good. You put forward a good strong case, well argumented. I'd be more than happy to read any literature you highly recommend, please send me titles and authors, and I'll order from the library.

I currently having coming across SV's book, although I've read a lot already and can see it's written in a high standard prose I don't think it's entirely '$#%^'. I couldn't care less how much (or little) money he may have made from sales (did you know it retails here in Oz for $162?) there's been a stack of 'terrible' writers out there that consistently hit the Best Seller List. Anyway, I digress, but I also have Nina Brown's Children of the Self-Absorbed coming too, as well as Patricia Evan's new one, The Abusive Man, Can he Change.

In regards to Butterfly Faeiries post,

"Alcohol and other drugs (AOD) can induce states that mimic a personality disorder, but if an AOD-using person with a personality disorder abstains, only the symptoms of the personality disorder will still be evident. AOD use may trigger or aggravate a personality disorder. The course and severity of personality disorders can also be made worse if other psychiatric problems, such as mood, anxiety and psychotic disorders are present.

A patient with a personality disorder frequently uses AODs to relieve her symptoms: to raise self-esteem, decrease feelings of guilt and amplify feelings of diminished individuality. "


I noted that the reference to alcohol or drugs was about PD's in general, not NPD's. The article goes on further to explain about the use of alcohol for reducing guilt feelings. I don't believe an NPD would do that as they don't feel guilt. I do believe an NPD may imbibe in some alcohol,, probably daily, to boost their diminished self-esteem. But as for getting drunk on a frequent basis, no, I don't think so as this would open their narcissistic injury to them. No amount of drinking could cover up their bleak internal emptiness, so best not to partake. And I think the 'high profiler' drinker (eg. 1 glass to get through the afternoon type thing) would also have a hard time admitting they are an alcholic to begin with let alone deal with their inadequacies that a personality disorder would present.

I have no doubts that AA and Alanon have helped an incredible amount of people who have N traits coupled with a drinking problem. Your point of childhood emotional development fits well. But the one's who are successful and go on to become sponsors, were they ever a full blown NPD? Well, let's just say I remain skeptical. :D

I'm going to the library today, I'll see if they have a section on alcholism and do some searching. I'll look for some Bill Wilson literature today.
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Postby shivers » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:29 am

I went to the library today, they don't have anything by Bill Wilson in their amalgamated libraries but she is ordering in something for me that has an interesting title. Along the lines of "The different brain of the alcholic." Won't know much more until I get to read it but the synopsis she read seemed very intriguing, sounded like it contained recent studies of alcoholics and why they become addicted, it said something about 'alcoholic prone personalities'.

I don't have anything against recovering NPD's, I just believe that you can't recover from a personality disorder, is all. I believe a person can modify their behaviour if they are motivated enough, for sure, but I don't believe someone can 'recover'.

An NPD is still stuck in the emotional development of a 6 - 12 year old, and that's it, regardless of his/her adult life experiences. That's why it's a personality disorder in the first place. If they simply had N traits, strong or weak, then over time, you'd see a changing of their traits, a softening perhaps, if only part of their thinking is stuck in the 6 - 12 year old gap then adult experiences would show some modifying or changing of values, but that is not NPD.

Learning empathy? Now that's a concept that is worth discussing. Let's say before 2002 I'd lived a grief free and relatively trouble free life. Thinking that from time to time I was stressed, but something so profound happens in 2002 that my perception of my previous life stresses and indeed the perception of my own empathy are shaken to the core and a big re-evaluation takes place. Let's say before, if I watched a movie where a child dies, or a baby is stillborn, I don't cry or feel overly upset by the scene on the TV, but AFTER I experience the stillbirth of my son and later, become a mother (in 2003), the very thought of another woman having a stillborn baby or a mother/family losing their young child, moves me to the point of heartfelt sobs for the loss of the actors on the TV or stories I hear in the news.

Before the adult life experience has remoulded my empathy for other people who endure the kind of loss I can relate too, I would view it from a 3rd party perspective, one where I could only struggle to hopefully find the right words or feelings.

But not now, my adult life experience has shifted my inner core and a new found empathy erupted from it. I wonder if this can happen to a person with NPD.

On the surface, observing my partner (it was his baby that was lost) I'd have to say, well, yes......but.....

And the fact that I put the 'but' in there makes me think that he realised a loss but not on a significant level. He has since brought the loss of his son up as a way of people giving him sympathy for his loss. And a good example was of the way he explained his loss to another couple, who had their fair share of losses too, and he made the other couple cry, but he didn't offer any solace to them. He didn't speak about how the experience had made him see things differentely, he used the bad experience of his loss so that they'd cry for 'him'. In the end, I apologised for him and later slightly berated him for making those nice people cry. To which, he smirked.

Hmmm, interesting concept and not one I'd given too much thought to before typing my thoughts in the paragraphs above.

Sorry, but I don't understand at all the last sentence in your post, was it meant for me?
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Postby 44 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:39 pm

wow so that's why a psychiatrist told me I am at the stage of a 8 year old, he said I was narcissistic, I don't see it though, i don't think there's anyhthing wrong with my behavior.
Boys are like parking spots, all the good ones are taken!

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Postby shivers » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:11 am

crikey's! Thanks ! Lots of information there to be getting on with. Thanks again.
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Postby breakaway » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:40 am

I don't understand this. What exactly makes our emotional development like that of a 6 to 12 year old? I admit that sometimes I may feel like a kid, but as someone in this post said, that's kind of a good thing isn't it? I just looked at Erikson's Eight Stages of Development and I am developed.

I really don't get why people always accuse N's of not having empathy. I'm sure we care about our own family do we not? I mean, maybe other people have some really extreme form of N, but I would imagine most people with N care about their family and close friends.

When I'm happy, I get REALLY happy. I can literally jump on my bed happy.

If any of these non-N's want to take an online test and compare their emotional development with mine, I'm more than happy to take it. I'm sure I can beat them.
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Postby perfectlynotperfect » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:00 pm

breakaway

I think any of us - esp Ns that took this test would think we were emotionally developed. why not have one or several people that know you well or have known your past/history rate you???

How about an objective third party administer it?

What is wrong with being a child you ask??? If you have to ask then that says everything. Have you ever had children??? they are wonderful but they think zero of others, inconsiderate, take what they want etc etc etc. Need I say more????

After much thought, and reading a post stating that 12 was being generous.... i have reconsidered my ages for my former N and my Mom - I think 6 is about right.....
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