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Death by 1000 cuts

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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby julllia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:56 am

it is not that easy to escape. is like saying to a depressed person "why don't you just feel happy and snap out of it" and then shame him that he doesn't and compare him to a prisoner of war. you have no empathy for his pain.
the one who should feel shame is the narcissist. you feel his shame instead.
and you know at the end you become as cruel as him .to escape from him you need to lose empathy for him and hurt him deeply and enjoy it. that easy ,not traumatic at all...., now you have become like him and you are not ashamed anymore.

on the other hand i have such resentment for women that stay ,are so disgusting. i am split one minute i relate and understand them and empathize and the next i hate them and they are so pathetic.maybe i have to find the middle
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby Kimera » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:54 am

OneRinger wrote:
Kimera wrote:I assume that someone with C-PTSD, who’s been through severe trauma (torture, prisoner of war, sexual slavery, etc.), would not suffer from shame, as there's no expectation of being able to rescue one's self. But perhaps I’m wrong about that – I really hadn’t thought about it before. Perhaps shame plays a role here, too.

And now my question....is the shame my friend experienced typical of what happens as a result of narcissistic abuse? Is it different for people whose trauma was inescapable?


PTSD in general, has to be life-threatening. And yes, it is really different, it is not even close to the same ballpark.

If you're going to quote me, at least take the time to read what I wrote. I posed a question about the nature of trauma due to 'narcissistic abuse' -- specifically if shame plays a role. Not comparing the magnitude of trauma to C-PTSD. That's been covered over the last 15 pages of this thread.
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby Akuma » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:05 pm

julllia wrote:the one who should feel shame is the narcissist. you feel his shame instead.


Close, but I think not quite. Shame can be other-directed. So the shame is directed at someone else, namely the powerful bully. The powerful bully is gone tho so where does the introject of powerful-bully-parent go? It goes where it has to go, where it waited for a long time to emerge before the actual bully-partner appeared: back inside. Now the shame is directed at your self, or at the alien self. The result is depression or self-harm or suicide. And a compulsion to get the now internal bulyl back out again, to gain some more self-coherence for the trade-off of a #######5 relationship.
The whole act of coming to a forum like this as a victim, trying to understand is just a delay, its another reprojection of that inner bully in another attempt to get acknowledged, respected, felt, maybe to get revenge even. Its the repetition compulsion, the same thing again, hoping for a different outcome, encrypted by displacements and projections.

And now my question....is the shame my friend experienced typical of what happens as a result of narcissistic abuse? Is it different for people whose trauma was inescapable?


Maybe its the other way around.
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby Pangloss » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:10 pm

SOTS, I'm on the same page with you except for the part about those who suffer from Post Traumatic Relationship Syndrome are likely to have had been abused in childhood, even though I would fit your criteria. The research papers did not specify that as far as I'm aware of - I would need to pay to access the bigger studies to know if that was a salient issue.

The difference for me is that I actually thrived even while suffering the misery with my stepmother - her abuse made me stronger. I was wondering myself what made it different, and I went through the same agonizing probing process that Kimera's friend went through. (Note: Kimera, I didn't find your posts at all insensitive, as you are not trying to invalidate the experience of trauma) I concluded that

1. It's all about Attachment and Marriage - I let my defenses down when I married my ex, whereas my defenses were up with my stepmother, a horrible bully. It is my way of being defiant - I will be stronger than my bully, even if she had more power over me.

In fact, I harbored the insane fantasy (in hindsight) that we both hurt persons would understand each other's traumatic childhood, would support each other in our future growth, would avoid our parents' mistakes and build a healthy family. I really put myself out for him as I did for hurt animals I used to nurse back to health (mostly birds and cats). I paid the rent, the bills, so he had more money to himself, I bought him gifts, eg clothes, I really tried to build a secure attachment for him. When he told me his exgf broke up and aborted their baby I thought to myself I would never do that to him, he wanted his own children, what a traumatic experience! I didn't think "Hmm...what's wrong with him that his gf would choose to leave and go through the pain of abortion?" Today's Pangloss would.

2. I was changed by the trauma of my marriage - that part of me that felt compassion and hope had to be killed for me to leave my ex. I wanted the part of me that believed in secure, healthy attachment back. I am now colder, gun shy and hyper-vigilant about people, I don't like this new me.

3. As for shame, I do feel somewhat stupid that I couldn't recognize the depth of the problem, but I had no idea about PDs, except for vague, abstract knowledge about psychology. I simply thought my stepmother was cruel, not disordered. Shame arises from Self-Blaming. I circumvented this through logic - I simply couldn't grasp how fundamentally different my ex is, eg. I don't know what it is like to be empathy-impaired, to be unable to attach to another, to harbor the impetus to hurt others, especially the most vulnerable in one's immediate circle, etc.

The last time I met my ex for a family event, I was pickpocketed. His first reaction was "How can you be so careless!" A few thoughts raced through my mind - 1. The pickpocket is a professional, a specialist, it's his job to be stealthy. I'm simply no match for his skills to be undetectable. 2. Why should the victim be blamed? Why blame at all? I will likely be unable to detect the next pickpocket who bumps into me, neither will my ex. 3. If it were my friend who was pickpocketed, my reaction would be "Are you ok?" and "Do you need any help?"

So we are really like Apples and Oranges, we can't fathom each other, we apply our own lenses based on what we are fundamentally. This I know now, but not then. This knowledge had to be gleaned through experience. Tbh, I still had little knowledge after identifying NPD traits and reading online articles. This is why I came here, to ask questions to understand the condition better. I'm still unable to grasp except at a cognitive level, and vice versa.

If I were to feel shame, I will have to feel regret for my ability to love, to hope, to desire a healthy attachment, to be tolerant, to be giving, to be able to hang in there when the going got tough, to repeatedly forgive,...I stayed in an unhealthy relationship because I had no idea about PDs, I thought I was strong, hopeful that one day my ex would see reason.

I have failed and have learned, but I don't feel shame because I simply didn't know better. It's like a child who has never smoked being offered cigarettes for the first time and found herself choking. She might have choked on fire smoke before, but she had no idea about cigarettes.


So all of these do dovetail with what I manage to find on the research on PTRS here:

https://theneurotypical.com/posttraumat ... drome.html

Why Post-Traumatic Relationship Syndrome?

The original impetus for the development of Posttraumatic Relationship Syndrome (PTRS) was clinical experience with clients whose symptoms were distinct from those with Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and to whom the traditional approaches to treatment of PTSD were inappropriate in a number of ways. Most notably, a major focus on getting in touch with the repressed traumatic memories is contraindicated in PTRS. The numbing of emotional responsiveness is not present in PTRS and with an overuse of emotion-focused coping, the client chronically approaches the traumatic memories too eagerly, leading to a harmful reliving of the trauma. In PTSD, there is a tendency to err on the side of too much constriction; in PTRS there is a tendency to err on the side of too much intrusion.

Another reason for the development of PTRS is adherence to the concept of a spectrum of posttraumatic disorders. Posttraumatic Stress Disorder has so dominated our concept of post-traumatic illness that it is often "perceived, albeit incorrectly, as a generic term for posttraumatic illness... [However], not all posttraumatic illness is posttraumatic stress disorder". The definition of posttraumatic illness in which the full criteria of PTSD are not met is the case in PTRS.

Interpersonal traumatic Stressors are particularly likely to create severe and long-term trauma responses. Even in the DSM-III-R's discussion of PTSD, it is noted that PTSD is likely to be "more severe and longer lasting when the Stressor is of human design". Further, research has shown that one of the biological functions of attachment is the regulation of physiological arousal. This may explain, in part, why people are more vulnerable in intimate versus non-intimate relationships and why traumatic Stressors in the intimate type of relationship are often harder to bear than those in the non-intimate and also harder to bear than traumatic Stressors attributable to nature or accidents.



I think what helps me to calm the overwhelming emotional intrusion is understanding what it is. I still don't know if it is triggering or calming at times, but for me, personally, incomprehension leads to repeated replaying of the dynamics as I searched for answers.
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby Kimera » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:21 pm

I'm going to take the discussion even further adrift, and assume Quoth is ok with it as I believe he's moved on from this thread.

Pangloss wrote:The difference for me is that I actually thrived even while suffering the misery with my stepmother - her abuse made me stronger. I was wondering myself what made it different, and I went through the same agonizing probing process that Kimera's friend went through.

I think your own grasp on the situation and expectations of her behavior had a great deal to do with it. You recognized you were dealing with a monster and had no expectation that would be different. So you knew you had to triumph.

Pangloss wrote:n fact, I harbored the insane fantasy (in hindsight) that we both hurt persons would understand each other's traumatic childhood, would support each other in our future growth, would avoid our parents' mistakes and build a healthy family.
.
In your marriage, you had very specific expectations, and a role for your husband to play. He may have even contributed to the creation of those expectations. Over time, not only did he not play his role correctly, but he turned out to be a monster, too. You had a difficult time letting go of what you expected (and needed) that marriage to be. I think it's the cognitive dissonance that creates the "trauma" in these situations.

I suspect that people stay with narcissists because they are desperately trying to salvage their own shattered fantasy -- while still trying to get their partner to play the role they were "meant" to play.

I can look back and see the role I played in another person's fantasy. Not because I was deliberately misleading them, I wasn't. I believed in that fantasy, too and I wanted to make it real. But over time I wasn't able to hold up my end of the bargain because of my PD. I didn't know this at the time. All I knew was that the other person was putting demands on me and asking me to be someone I couldn't be. At the time I was angry by the demands and I lashed out. Now I see I was also being defensive and not wanting to deal with my own disappointment.
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby Pangloss » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:38 pm

Thanks to a member here, I'm able to view the paper "Posttraumatic relationship syndrome: The conscious processing of the world of trauma" and I'm going to share any insight I find.

Kimera, that's one of the worst cognitive dissonance, if I think of my ex as a "monster". I am now emphatic that part of healing consists of NOT going down that path, or at least telling the difference along the spectrum, as there are of course psychopaths who are also afflicted with NPD.

Drawing up some Venn Diagrams could help to encompass the variety.

The challenge for me is to NOT think of my stepmother as a "monster"...thinking her as one helped me in building my defenses and ironically gave me strength in coping with her. :?

Careful not to confuse "Hope" with "Fantasy" - Jasmer's relatively stable and happy marriage is rather real. I think being Aware, on the part of both partners, is highly possible, before the drawn out battles deplete the " stress credits" (I think juillia's term)

Hurting him doesn't make it better, though it might feel good to regulate my internal state of anger and hurt. It can be involuntary, though. Cognitively, I'll be doing the same to him what he did to me, perpetuating the hurtful downward spiral.

At the moment Apples and Oranges serves as a sort of placeholder - I still don't know how to wrap my head around that concept yet, it is challenging how to regain limited empathy, how to permit permeability, etc. cautiously.

For sure communication with members here help so much as my ex and other pwNPDs I've encountered are unable to open up enough, or lack the introspection, cognitive ability, etc. to understand the dynamics themselves. I see less "monster", and more "difference", I'm finally understanding the variety of "fruits", as a metaphor. However, I'd decline to taste "Oranges", understanding that I cannot cope with the results of digesting them.

The solution lies in relieving the constant emotional intrusions, and I wonder if that answer lies in comprehension.

Thinking back, there are so many layers of psychological walls I need to dismantle and rebuild...quite a challenge for me.

Back to thinking further about trauma classification, these are my own views.

Upstream causes (including traumatic one-off life-threatening events and chronic psychological stress and abuse) -> Resultant Trauma -> (1) Those for whom effects are manageable (2) Those for whom effects include Traumatic Syndrome (insomnia, depression, suicidal thoughts, etc.) (3) Those for whom effects result in Traumatic Syndrome + Disorder.

The same upstream causes could result in different outcome depending on criteria such as duration, severity, relationship between perpetrators of Upstream Causes and victims, the victims' defenses, etc.

Group (2) suffers from a Syndrome that includes cognitive dissonance, self-harm, a death (suicide) or "near-death" experience (suicidal thoughts), shaken/shattered beliefs stemming from fundamentals that the Self is built of, etc.

Arguably, Group (3) had it the worst of the 3, probably due to the fact that for many, the Upstream Causes commenced almost from birth and before a coherent Self could be realized, thus Syndrome + Disorder.

Although SOTS' Case A could result in terrible Group (2) or (3) consequences, it is also often possible that it results in strong survivors, eg those who survived the Holocaust or the Killing Fields relatively intact.

Thus it is futile to argue about the Upstream Causes to invalidate Outcomes, as the same Upstream Causes could bring about results as varied as Complexity, as Life itself.
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby SOTS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:41 pm

Kimera wrote:I suspect that people stay with narcissists because they are desperately trying to salvage their own shattered fantasy -- while still trying to get their partner to play the role they were "meant" to play.

I can look back and see the role I played in another person's fantasy. Not because I was deliberately misleading them, I wasn't. I believed in that fantasy, too and I wanted to make it real. But over time I wasn't able to hold up my end of the bargain because of my PD. I didn't know this at the time. All I knew was that the other person was putting demands on me and asking me to be someone I couldn't be. At the time I was angry by the demands and I lashed out. Now I see I was also being defensive and not wanting to deal with my own disappointment.


Everything you've said there also applies to failed relationships where neither party has a PD. I think somewhere around 50% of marriages end in divorce. That's pretty dismal. For those who don't marry, the failure rate is probably higher.

While PDs certainly cause even worse difficulties, this fantasy thing is present for lots of people and it's destructive. After the "honeymoon" phase, when reality sets in and normal, not thrilling day to day life returns, partners get busy trying to change each other to meet each others expectations. That can get brutal as one blames the other (which people without PDs do, as well) for their disappointment and both dig in and get defensive. Lots of people can't live up to their own expectations for themselves, let alone someone elses. We're quick to rationalize and make excuses for ourselves, though, where we won't cut the other person any slack, at all. Throw some PDs or other psychological issues (control freaks, co-dependents, etc) in there and it's a guaranteed train wreck.

It's interesting what you said about you having fantasies, too, and that you didn't deliberately mislead your partner. That shows that not all pwNPD intentionally set out to lure in gullible partners with evil plans to fvck them over. Obviously, some do (as written about right here on this board) but not you and, I'm sure some other pwNPD. Everyone is different.

While cognitive dissonance occurs at some point in every failed relationship, that's not a source of trauma, imo. When one partner has a PD, it's the abuse that does the lasting damage to the other party.
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby OneRinger » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:45 pm

Kimera wrote:
OneRinger wrote:
Kimera wrote:I assume that someone with C-PTSD, who’s been through severe trauma (torture, prisoner of war, sexual slavery, etc.), would not suffer from shame, as there's no expectation of being able to rescue one's self. But perhaps I’m wrong about that – I really hadn’t thought about it before. Perhaps shame plays a role here, too.

And now my question....is the shame my friend experienced typical of what happens as a result of narcissistic abuse? Is it different for people whose trauma was inescapable?


PTSD in general, has to be life-threatening. And yes, it is really different, it is not even close to the same ballpark.

If you're going to quote me, at least take the time to read what I wrote. I posed a question about the nature of trauma due to 'narcissistic abuse' -- specifically if shame plays a role. Not comparing the magnitude of trauma to C-PTSD. That's been covered over the last 15 pages of this thread.


You asked whether spousal abuse is different than a trauma where you can't escape like PTSD. The answer is yes, unless there was a lot of violence, and the life was threatened. What makes PTSD like it is, from my understanding, is the feeling of helplessness in face of violence. What you described seem something else entirely, and actually someone that chose to stay, and is now wondering why. So it has to be different. Like I said, it is not in the same ballpark. I was of course talking about the nature of it, not the magnitude.

If there is such a thing as narcissist abuse that is defined somewhere, then you can look if it has shame as a symptom. I don't care, so I won't check. That is also why I did not answer, because I don't know, nor do I want to know, because I am against this weaponizing of PDs. It is sick to even contemplate. It's right up there with eugenics in terms of contemptible. And psychiatry has a track history on this.

But on what I actually care about; if you actually reread what you wrote. You asked two questions, and alluded to a third:

"Perhaps shame plays a role here, too."

I answered that. It doesn't. There is no shame in a situation where you have no control. What is problematic, is how to deal with this lack of control. The ways to deal with it is dissociation, hypervigilance and aggressive behavior, and those are the criteria of PTSD. It is what is meant by inescapable.

"Is it different for people whose trauma was inescapable?"

I answered that as well. It is really different, if it is truly inescapable. Anything that is inescapable, will create this same type of result, and this can go for plenty of things you have no control over at all, like let's say racism, having a deformity, or having a PD. So you see the irony here. Having a personality disorder predisposes to things "like" C-PTSD. It won't be the same in magnitude, but the coping will be the same, at least until there is self-awareness and some acceptance is done. Otherwise you just get hit on the head, and don't know why. And this is not diagnosed differently, because it is known to be part of it, or possibly part of it.

Now, I will let all of you go on with your program I totally disagree with, which seems to be repeat abuse, but whatever you all want, it is not my problem. :lol:
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby julllia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:59 pm

Weaponizing pds?Having empathy means you can understand your part of the blame and recognize what you did wrong ,something that they try to avoid in every way possible in this part of the forum and excuse themselves . Well dah.
Afraid to take any responsibility or guilt ,prefer to attack the victim.
When i say it was both their fault.they reply is ,stop weaponizing pds. I think it needs empathy to say yes i was wrong and i am trying to not hurt you.yes they hurt you.
Instead of not all narcissist are the same and stop attacking me i am the victim the poor narcissist.
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Re: Death by 1000 cuts

Postby Pangloss » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 pm

I had a quick read through of the paper, it wasn't easy, it was triggering, but it clarifies and offers a more coherent summation of PTRS by offering context and relating and comparing to the body of work on PTSD.

It will be interesting to consider if the key component "intimate relationship trauma" overlaps with an "attachment relationship trauma" such as between a child and a parent (except for the sexual intimacy part) as it pertains to the paradigm-shattering aspect described by Freud.

Symptoms of PTRS include

Initial response:
The person's response involves intense fear/terror or horror and rage at the perpetrator.
Intrusive symptoms (which were not present before the trauma):
(1) Persistent re-experiencing of the event(s) in images, thoughts, recollections, daydreams, nightmares, and/or night terrors;
(2) Extreme psychological distress (which may be accompanied by physiological reactivity) in the presence of the perpetrator or symbolic reminders of the perpetrator (e.g., uncontrollable shaking in the presence of the perpetrator).

Arousal symptoms (which were not present before the trauma):
(1) Hypervigilance (which may be the result of not feeling safe in the world;)
(2) Sleep disturbances (insomnia); (3) Persistent feelings of rage at the perpetrator
(4) Restlessness; (5) Difficulty concentrating; (6) Weight loss.

Relational symptoms:
(1) Not feeling safe in the world; (2) Mistrust and fear of intimate relationships (or a particular type of intimate relationship); (3) Sexual dysfunction, especially
for those who have been sexually abused; (4) Disruption in the
victim’s social support network.


Credit for the quotes in this and subsequent posts to

SOCIAL BEHAVIOR AND PERSONALITY, 2003,
31(7),675-686
© Society for Personality Research
DOI 10.2224/sbp.2003
POSTTRAUMATIC RELATIONSHIP SYNDROME: THE CONSCIOUS PROCESSING OF THE WORLD
OF TRAUMA
DEBRA VANDERVOORT
University of Hawaii at Hilo, HI, USA
AMIR OKACH
The Institute for the Study & Treatment of Psychosocial Stress, Toronto,
Ontario, Canada

-- Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:25 am --

Posttraumatic Relationship Syndrome differs from PTSD in a number of ways.
First, the nature of the stressor differs in the following three ways: (1) in PTRS,
the traumatic stressor may be physical, sexual, or emotional (whether or not
there is a threat to one's physical integrity), whereas in PTSD, the stressor must
be physical or involve a threat to the physical integrity of the self or others;

(2) whereas in PTSD the stressor can be experienced or witnessed, PTRS requires
direct involvement with the abuser and actually experiencing the abus
e; and

(3) in PTRS, the stressor must be in the context of an emotionally intimate relation-ship
which in not the case in PTSD.

Secondly, the response to the stressor differs.
In PTRS, the person's response involves rage at the perpetrator, which is
not a requirement in PTSD (although a more generalized form of anger is a possible,
but not a required symptom of PTSD; [APA, 1994]).
This difference is understandable in light of the lack of emotional
numbing in PTRS.

Another difference is that PTSD does not include a relational symptom category due, of
course, to the fact that the traumatic stressor need not be in the context of a
relationship.

The fourth, and perhaps the most salient difference between the two disorders is
that the way of coping with the trauma differs.

Unlike PTSD, numbing of emotional responsiveness and avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma is not characteristic of PTRS.
This creates a very different experience of the "world of
trauma" -a more conscious experience in PTRS, than in PTSD, the latter of
which involves an oscillation between a conscious and unconscious experience
of the trauma (i.e., between hyper-awareness of traumatic memories and avoidance of
them).

That is, both disorders involve a state of psychological crisis, as
the subjective experience of trauma shatters the psyche's ability to maintain
equilibrium.

Whereas in PTSD, this crisis state is coped with via an overuse of
emotional numbing (or an avoidant coping style), in PTRS, the person remains too
acutely aware of being in a traumatized state (i.e., an overuse of emotion-
focused coping which, as Herman (1992) suggests, can lead to unnecessary retraumatization
of the individual).

Thus, in PTRS, the client needs to be taught to use
more desensitization techniques to make the processing of the trauma more
manageable.

Clients with PTRS appear to be overly courageous in taking on
more than they can handle with a concomitant failure to engage in adequate
psychological self-protection
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