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Narcissism and Identity

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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby Midwinter » Fri May 19, 2017 2:19 pm

To return to the main topic of the thread:

I am curious how adaptable Narcissism is regarding these issues. When one gets older and is no longer physically appealing, can one channel into another domain? Or does this lead to other problems, i.e. depression etc.


I think pwNPD has a very fluid and flexible way of dealing with this, much how water runs through canals and such. If one way is blocked (i.e. lack of supply) the water will find another way, until it eventually runs out of places to go to.

I think the same mechanism happens if one area of life fades or is shut down for the pwNPD. I would say pwNPD is masters at this. They suddenly rush to other areas as they need to fulfill that supply and feed the false identity they have. If they go stale of places to tap into, the pwNPD eventually resides to internal fantasizing, rageful outburst and despair to find any type of admiration, even if it means hurting yourself in the process for empathy from others.

It's like the body trying to get oxygen. Without it, consequences are fatal.
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby whichway » Fri May 19, 2017 4:43 pm

Midwinter wrote:If they go stale of places to tap into, the pwNPD eventually resides to internal fantasizing, rageful outburst and despair to find any type of admiration, even if it means hurting yourself in the process for empathy from others.

It's like the body trying to get oxygen. Without it, consequences are fatal.


You've mentioned being in a period without supply and it drove you into therapy. Is there a time when even fantasy becomes too tiring and the supply from that runs out?
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby Midwinter » Fri May 19, 2017 9:12 pm

whichway wrote:
Midwinter wrote:If they go stale of places to tap into, the pwNPD eventually resides to internal fantasizing, rageful outburst and despair to find any type of admiration, even if it means hurting yourself in the process for empathy from others.

It's like the body trying to get oxygen. Without it, consequences are fatal.


You've mentioned being in a period without supply and it drove you into therapy. Is there a time when even fantasy becomes too tiring and the supply from that runs out?


Well. It happened. First I completely despaired in trying to get all of my supply back, but everyone felt the right time was to leave when I was at my lowest and couldn't defend. Withdrawning into my fantasy I became violently aggressive and outbursting. I also thought of myself as someone that was misunderstood and that I were to win over them all eventually. But since I didn't get any supply even from that I started to get into the suicidal and destroying nature of when the supply runs completely out.

I can tell you this much; I've never experienced any type of emotional pain like that. I understand what they mean when they express the true fragile self of the narcissist. I don't ever want to go back to that point, and I clearly understand why I have built this defense personality in order to cope.

After that I actually rebounded back into fantasy, believing I was the sh#t and that everyone around me chased me. The males was jealous and the females lustful. That's when I got back into the grandiose feeling again. I eventually found supply in women once more, so everything turned around and I got back on track.
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby whichway » Sat May 20, 2017 8:09 am

Midwinter wrote:Well. It happened.


Sounds painful and like it made a lasting impression you. When you got to that place and then rebounded into fantasy, was your thought process something like, "No! Screw this! I AM ________! These #####& just don't see it!"?

I'm curious how the fantasy slipped away but you managed to grab hold of it again.

If I'm prying too much no need to answer.
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby Midwinter » Sat May 20, 2017 8:49 am

whichway wrote:If I'm prying too much no need to answer.


Lol. You are asking me to talk about myself, one thing I really love :lol:

whichway wrote:Sounds painful and like it made a lasting impression you.


It has. I have this intense fear whenever I get stale in my life now or doesn't get the supply I need, and I experience a dissociative style of coping whenever I remember back at the experience. It was a very weird, angry and uncontrollable period of my life.

In fact, the experience was so shockingly profound and destructive that it lead me to try to understand whatever the f#ck happened. That's how I ended up here. It actually gave me insight into seeking why I am the way I am, because beforehand I would never have guessed others were like me.

whichway wrote:I'm curious how the fantasy slipped away but you managed to grab hold of it again.


I think it was done automatically by finding new supply. I was able to constantly talk about myself with the therapist, which helped immensely in regaining my stability back, and then I started to hunt again. The therapist gave me a reason to slack, and I loved that. The events was like a bow and arrow, where I was getting pulled back only to result in me eventually launching forward with double the speed. The therapist (I would say he didn't have much experience, because instead of working on me as a person he just let me talk) wasn't eventually enough but it was just enough to regain my fantasy coping style, and that gave me the strength to start becoming grandiose again.

Currently I have a very stable supply with a co-dependent relationship that constantly feeds into my admiration, I have a work with a very good salary and people that constantly talk about how good I am at my job, a boss that loves me and my ex which has begun to work with me (and she is basicly my inferior, so I feel powerful in this position). I am doing great in my sport which I also constantly gets admiration from, and I am hopefully starting further education soon in which I will feel I become more intelligent. Everything is good.
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby mark1958 » Sat May 20, 2017 12:02 pm

Interesting comments here. What I write now may not be very satisfying for you academically or scholarly inclined individuals.

What is the "self", and who decides what the "self" is? And what is considered a disorderd self? Who is the arbiter of that? I know he is not a favorite of those who have Narcissistic personalities, but Theodore Millon was a critic of the label "disordered." He felt it signaled a medical issue, and that to secure relief one seeks out to become "ordered." And what does that even mean?

Let us start with a definition from the American Psychiatric Association:

Personality is the way of thinking, feeling and behaving that makes a person different from other people. An individual’s personality is influenced by experiences, environment (surroundings, life situations) and inherited characteristics. A personality disorder is a way of thinking, feeling and behaving that deviates from the expectations of the culture, causes distress or problems functioning, and lasts over time.


The bolded part is the part that is interesting to me. Who decides what the expectations of culture are? Does it depend of what era or generation we belong to? In the 1960's here in the US, if you were either Histrionic or Borderline, with the vast array of emotional expressiveness, you were probably very popular and not considered necessarily disordered. In the 1980's, if you possess Narcissistic or Anti-social-traits, you probably stood a decent chance of advancing within a career or organization. The ability to apply self-determinism, and sometimes hard, rigid rational thinking is what was prized in society at the time. After-all, if you were required to lay off 30,000 people, they do not want you emotionally invested in the decision.


So, what is disordered? Is it this disconnect between true self-false self? Or a lack of integration? It is fact that we all have two reasoning abilities; the rational, analytical side and the emotional side. However, most people are not perfectly balanced between these two. One usually dominates. Some people are very emotive, and some are not. Is emotional health then the ability to be able to switch between these two domains when required. Is that what therapy is really about?

I think it is fair to say, a pwBPD is too much emotional based reasoning and life is experienced through that lens. And a pwNPD is too much engaged in a sometimes rigid, harsh practicality and pragmatism, and seeks to achieve goals through that lens, and emotions be damned.

As an example, I see a pragmatism in both Akuma's and Midwinter's writing style and descriptions. If "A" is not available, then we go to "B". Regardless of the motivation behind it (grandiosity or perfectionism or "supply") I see a goal striving thought process. Whichway and even Juilla is in the realm of feelings and emotions. The inner child if you will guides or hampers. Both work for the individuals involved.

Is the self then the combination of these two factors? I realize this is way, way simplistic. But perhaps more people would approach therapy if described in this way.

I think Kimera's skepticism in following therapy is that she does not want something taken from her. Something she prides her self in. Obviously, only nature will take care of physical appeal via the aging process. But her career achievements belong to intellectual capabilities. I have never seen any connection between personality disorders and intellectual ability or IQ. In others words, enhancing or detracting. Certainly the internal drive to succeed can be enhanced. But not base level IQ.

I have seen where it is postulated that personality disorders can impair or result in low emotional intelligence or EQ. The inability to read emotions in one self or others, have empathy, etc. So, her "success" should not really be compromised via therapy.

So rather than this false self-true self issue, perhaps it s simply connecting both the ability to rationally reason and be emotionally expressive that leads to more emotional well being and contentment in life.
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby julllia » Sat May 20, 2017 12:26 pm

i like the words disordered and crazy and i hate the words order and normal. like they are boring and completely uninteresting and dull to be normal. so is mater of perspective.
but i also hate the idea of self sabotage and misery and i want to be happy.
but somehow normal and order is connected to unhappiness too and misery for me.
crazyness is connected to misery and pain but not a boring one .normal is connected to safe but a miserable superficial safeness and despair. so everything is negative and painful crazy or not. with crazy is more interesting or passionate. you see the problem?
a lot of people do not want to be normal

i hate the term true self because i think all pds will fall into the trap misinterpreting like worthless. this is why i prefer words like defense or peace etc

So rather than this false self-true self issue, perhaps it s simply connecting both the ability to rationally reason and be emotionally expressive that leads to more emotional well being and contentment in life.


so i agree with this. i do not know why they use the term true self. i guess they know better. but is seems difficult to make someone understand with this term without perceiving it like is something he doesn't want. except if you are a non,then it makes sense to a non completely why they use it from their perspective i get it.
but we all want happiness.
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby julllia » Sat May 20, 2017 12:49 pm

it seems like if you change perspective and see inside different people, they almost have different definitions of words and they associate the same word with different emotions. so to make someone understand you can not use the word always ,but instead the emotion.it depends who that person is.

for example other times people dare you to be different and claim this is better and support individualism,so in this case a crazy person is associated with something positive.
but other times a crazy person is associated with judgment and pain or illness.
other times normal feels surpressive and sad and for others it feels happy
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby mark1958 » Sat May 20, 2017 1:08 pm

julllia wrote:it seems like if you change perspective and see inside different people, they almost have different definitions of words and they associate the same word with different emotions. so to make someone understand you can not use the word always ,but instead the emotion.it depends who that person is.

for example other times people dare you to be different and claim this is better and support individualism,so in this case a crazy person is associated with something positive.
but other times a crazy person is associated with judgment and pain or illness.
other times normal feels surpressive and sad and for others it feels happy


Yes, an interesting perspective. Personality is so complex and is constructed via so many variables. How one acts and behaves, and whether that is good or bad, depends on who is doing the judging. Some people like "wild" and other people like 'serious". Which is right/wrong.

I think it is the degree of internal distress that is the issue. How much internal suffering is there? And what is the proper way to alleviate that. I do not think having a "prototype" of what a good or healthy personality is can ever be satisfactorily applied to people as a benchmark. Who would construct that?
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Re: Narcissism and Identity

Postby julllia » Sat May 20, 2017 1:15 pm

the other problem is narcissists do not want to change because they do not believe (or admit?) they suffer and do not see the self sabotage.to want to change you have to feel the pain or problem.and they do not see it as a problem. although others around them do.

or i read you have to convince someone to want to be normal and associate it with something good and not something repressing or negative. because they will not want to be normal.their perception of normal would be different.

you have to make them see(including myself) that is more positive to want to be closer to normal without suppressing your difference from others,than on the verge.
i hear normal and think something very negative and i feel like i do not belong with or i do not want it. i had to put away that thought.and see it as happiness, that is very difficult
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