Kimera wrote:mark1958 wrote:But while such a pathological false self stifled the spontaneous gestures of the true self in favour of a lifeless imitation, Winnicott nevertheless considered it of vital importance in preventing something worse: the annihilating experience of the exploitation of the hidden true self itself
I don't get what he's saying here. Can someone translate?
These fake interactions are there to "protect" a true self that is vulnerable and seems fragile. The false self only exists because it's protecting that. Otherwise why would you even need a false self?
On my high horse again: PwNPD believe that the true self can be killed. It can't.
I've mentioned this before here a long time ago. That "thing" there in the void that you keep avoiding - YOU don't die if it gets crushed (in fact, IT never dies either). You know this cognitively. Your body doesn't collapse and wither away if you experience vulnerability You've experienced it many times over when you have narcissistic injuries. It may be an unbearable, unpleasant experience. But you don't die. What (I believe) you need is a person to "hold your hand" in that vulnerability so you don't experience it alone (the way a parent would).
Kimera wrote:whichway wrote:Allow me to be grandiose for a moment.
You've come to the right place
Phew!
Kimera wrote:whichway wrote:Reaching that place for the first time of course will create a BPD personality
A question about this. So, is this meant to be a reverse engineering of sorts? In other words, was there a borderline personality there in the first place, and then narcissistic defenses built around it? If so, is borderline personality a half-baked narcissist, or a PD on its own merit?
I can only speak for my belief and my experience. Science may never get the answer until they can map the brain with imaging.
I do believe NPD is a defense to prevent BPD from occurring. I don't think it really matters if a person with BPD is a "half-baked narcissist" or not. But sure, going with my logic that would fall in line.
Kimera wrote:Ok another question....we know that pwNPD come in many different flavors, i.e. the maladaptions manifest in different ways. Why would it be believable that all pwNPD have the same path to "healing" you describe?
People come in different flavors, PD or not.
A PD is a combination of faulty cognitions and affects played out in a repeated pattern that gets reinforced each time it's repeated.
NPD is a pattern of feeling the true self, feeling, "Oh ###$!", thinking it needs to be avoided or covered up, and creating false self interactions to "deal".
BPD is a pattern of having intense feelings (also known as "Oh ###$!") and reacting to them accordingly. But without the false self defense, this allows room for doubt and guilt. Which then leads to constant questioning and more intense feelings and so the splitting goes round and round, reinforcing each time.
Non is a pattern of having an intense feeling, using coping methods and resiliency to calm it (reinforced by the secure base that has been internalized from a parent or a therapist) and moving on with life, operating through the true self.
Some pwNPD may move into BPD and not look like it because they may not have the same severity of symptoms by the time they get into the BPD stage.
This is all just me talking. I'm not a researcher. I don't have clinical experience. I have my own experience and I've done a lot of reading (as have many of the people here). For me, having gone through the BPD defenses (and a brief period of narcissistic defenses), I base my opinions off of that, and interpret what I experienced through the literature.
It would be grandiose for me to believe that everyone's path of healing will look exactly like mine. But I think the general trajectory and rearranging of "objects", cognitions, affects, however you want to label things, is generally the same.