Narcissism and Identity

Kimera wrote:

mark1958 wrote:But while such a pathological false self stifled the spontaneous gestures of the true self in favour of a lifeless imitation, Winnicott nevertheless considered it of vital importance in preventing something worse: the annihilating experience of the exploitation of the hidden true self itself

I don't get what he's saying here. Can someone translate?

Winnicott considered the pathological false self to be vitally important - despite it favoring a lifeless imitation of a true self - in order to prevent the annihilating experience if someone exploited the true self.

I think. Honestly, I get you Kimera. It is poorly written, and it seems whoever the author of it is, he seems to try to impress everyone with thesaurus, instead of just writing in every day terms.

Kimera wrote:

mark1958 wrote:But while such a pathological false self stifled the spontaneous gestures of the true self in favour of a lifeless imitation, Winnicott nevertheless considered it of vital importance in preventing something worse: the annihilating experience of the exploitation of the hidden true self itself

I don't get what he's saying here. Can someone translate?

These fake interactions are there to "protect" a true self that is vulnerable and seems fragile. The false self only exists because it's protecting that. Otherwise why would you even need a false self?

On my high horse again: PwNPD believe that the true self can be killed. It can't.

I've mentioned this before here a long time ago. That "thing" there in the void that you keep avoiding - YOU don't die if it gets crushed (in fact, IT never dies either). You know this cognitively. Your body doesn't collapse and wither away if you experience vulnerability You've experienced it many times over when you have narcissistic injuries. It may be an unbearable, unpleasant experience. But you don't die. What (I believe) you need is a person to "hold your hand" in that vulnerability so you don't experience it alone (the way a parent would).

Kimera wrote:

whichway wrote:Allow me to be grandiose for a moment.

You've come to the right place

Phew!

Kimera wrote:

whichway wrote:Reaching that place for the first time of course will create a BPD personality

A question about this. So, is this meant to be a reverse engineering of sorts? In other words, was there a borderline personality there in the first place, and then narcissistic defenses built around it? If so, is borderline personality a half-baked narcissist, or a PD on its own merit?

I can only speak for my belief and my experience. Science may never get the answer until they can map the brain with imaging.

I do believe NPD is a defense to prevent BPD from occurring. I don't think it really matters if a person with BPD is a "half-baked narcissist" or not. But sure, going with my logic that would fall in line.

Kimera wrote:Ok another question....we know that pwNPD come in many different flavors, i.e. the maladaptions manifest in different ways. Why would it be believable that all pwNPD have the same path to "healing" you describe?

People come in different flavors, PD or not.

A PD is a combination of faulty cognitions and affects played out in a repeated pattern that gets reinforced each time it's repeated.

NPD is a pattern of feeling the true self, feeling, "Oh ###$!", thinking it needs to be avoided or covered up, and creating false self interactions to "deal".

BPD is a pattern of having intense feelings (also known as "Oh ###$!") and reacting to them accordingly. But without the false self defense, this allows room for doubt and guilt. Which then leads to constant questioning and more intense feelings and so the splitting goes round and round, reinforcing each time.

Non is a pattern of having an intense feeling, using coping methods and resiliency to calm it (reinforced by the secure base that has been internalized from a parent or a therapist) and moving on with life, operating through the true self.

Some pwNPD may move into BPD and not look like it because they may not have the same severity of symptoms by the time they get into the BPD stage.

This is all just me talking. I'm not a researcher. I don't have clinical experience. I have my own experience and I've done a lot of reading (as have many of the people here). For me, having gone through the BPD defenses (and a brief period of narcissistic defenses), I base my opinions off of that, and interpret what I experienced through the literature.

It would be grandiose for me to believe that everyone's path of healing will look exactly like mine. But I think the general trajectory and rearranging of "objects", cognitions, affects, however you want to label things, is generally the same.

whichway wrote:On my high horse again: PwNPD believe that the true self can be killed. It can't.

I've mentioned this before here a long time ago. That "thing" there in the void that you keep avoiding - YOU don't die if it gets crushed (in fact, IT never dies either). You know this cognitively. Your body doesn't collapse and wither away if you experience vulnerability You've experienced it many times over when you have narcissistic injuries. It may be an unbearable, unpleasant experience. But you don't die. What (I believe) you need is a person to "hold your hand" in that vulnerability so you don't experience it alone (the way a parent would).

Yeah. This is probably the reason why NPDs avoid it. It feels almost like dying if your self is destroyed. It also feels like a loss of control, and NPDs require total control over everything in order to have the perfect image.

you know i often wonder why they say bpd have emotional empathy and npd doesn't.
if the level between npd and true self is bpd. like it was mentioned. then what is going on with empathy.
do they have the same.or they were born with different genetic predisposition but similar trauma that made one npd and the other to bpd.
or they had the same genetic predisposition, in this case what made the difference in the disorder . for one to have bpd and the other npd.??

probably i am a non. but i did felt i had some narcissistic defense that the moment i became aware and tried to find the true self turned to bpd and more emotions.but under that i do not know how to find the true self. but i think that is because i do not have the full disorder. and the narcissistic defense was just a weak cover. i doubt it would be the same for a narcissist.i do not know

Midwinter wrote:Winnicott considered the pathological false self to be vitally important - despite it favoring a lifeless imitation of a true self - in order to prevent the annihilating experience if someone exploited the true self.

I was confused because at one point Winnicott talks about barren emptiness and later talks about a hidden true self. Seems contradictory? And then I wasn't sure what was meant by exploiting the true self.

Midwinter wrote:Yeah. This is probably the reason why NPDs avoid it. It feels almost like dying if your self is destroyed. It also feels like a loss of control, and NPDs require total control over everything in order to have the perfect image.

Exactly. No way to be vulnerable - defenses too strong.

whichway wrote:On my high horse again: PwNPD believe that the true self can be killed. It can't.

I didn't say it can be killed. I said it doesn't exist. Barren emptiness.

On the other hand, I'm protecting something like the devil. Something that must be worth shielding so fiercely.

Kimera wrote:

Midwinter wrote:Winnicott considered the pathological false self to be vitally important - despite it favoring a lifeless imitation of a true self - in order to prevent the annihilating experience if someone exploited the true self.

I was confused because at one point Winnicott talks about barren emptiness and later talks about a hidden true self. Seems contradictory? And then I wasn't sure what was meant by exploiting the true self.

I think the emptiness comes from a sense of self-annihilation. NPD usually develops in order to prevent emotional annihilation in a child, and to fulfill the parental needs that the NPD didn't get. Inside of them is a rage so volatile that stems from intense self-hatred, agonizing shame and extreme low self-esteem. When a narcissists faces that inner child that is filled with so much emotional stress, you eventually return to the point where you were so emotionally destroyed that you felt empty. That is where it comes from, because the fragile ego inside of you is like a dead shell. It isn't alive. There is nothing of the fragile true self you can use to prevent the hurt and self-hatred, and that is why you feel empty when you face it. Living in a true self that is self-hating and destructive will lead to sucididal intentions. We see that in children that form depression instead; they cannot defend themselves against these thoughts and eventually kill themselves. They become numb and cannot prevent it. We also see it when we lose supply. I've done it once, and I can say it destroyed my life, gave me an alienated depression and numbness and a volatile behaviour in the months where I rebuilt my false self, in order to prevent facing this hurt.

"The False Self used as the ‘comfort’ to avoid these wounds caused the narcissist’s True Self to be undeveloped, and eventually null and void. There are no internal resources for the narcissist to face the inner wounds and the narcissist knows this – and therefore taking ownership of them is avoided at all and any cost"

It's interesting. I enjoy this intellectual debate.

I know I'm skipping replying to things... just too much (good) discussion going on at once and I'm a busy beaver lately.

Midwinter wrote:"The False Self used as the ‘comfort’ to avoid these wounds caused the narcissist’s True Self to be undeveloped, and eventually null and void. There are no internal resources for the narcissist to face the inner wounds and the narcissist knows this – and therefore taking ownership of them is avoided at all and any cost"

That's why for a pwNPD they need external resources. But not false ones. They need to meet someone who understands what's going on (hopefully a skilled therapist) who can walk them into their true self and be there "with them" (attuned) to provide those external resources. Think of it like a boot camp. You train over and over with someone so that later that training becomes internalized and you now have a "secure base" and don't need the person any longer.




Someone mentioned why is a true self attractive? Because living with a false self is like experiencing a pale world. Everything is clenched down and the world is experienced defensively. Living with a true self feels open and airy and you don't feel like you're being attacked everywhere you go or like you have to exhaust yourself holding up some false ideal. I realize for many of you you may not feel like you're exerting any effort to hold up a false self. I'd say you're not in touch with how your body feels and your emotional experience.

I do realize there's a manic rush that comes with receiving supply. But you know as well as I do that that's short lived. It's like taking a drug. It's not sustainable. Having a true self is something that's always there to draw from. It's a long-term, more permanent place of enjoyment. And you can still have the drug rush. You just won't rely on it anymore.

While this is all very nice, I'm not sure why people like using the TS/FS so much though. Winnicott was at no point talking about narcissistic illnesses. If anything at all he was rather talking about schizoid ones. I think its a bit misleading for several reasons. First of all the False Self, according to Winnicott, is a construct restricting activity, shutting off certain aspects due to parental rules that run counter to the natural functionign of the organism. Secondly the grandiose self - if I remember this correctly, this is actually a book I dont have - is according to Kernberg a spontanous remerging of primitive personality parts, that protects the young child / toddler from developing psychosis. Thirdly whatever we call it, this structure consists of paranoid-schizoid "data", so not only is this a very weird and psychotic place in itself, but its also totally hidden from view. So talking about a narcissistic false self like its somehow apparent while the supposed true self would be hidden, is not very accurate imo.

Helpful commentary old Aku, I wasn't quite grasping the true and false self juxtaposition. I am curious where you quoted the child developing said self to avoid psychosis, perhaps you could elaborate there. However I do understand and personally observe the "primitive" traits emerging, I often think of this.

or another metaphor of how is see it sometimes the tue/false self

imagine that you live somewhere that there is a war. and fighting ,winning and protecting yourself is all your life and all you do and what you become.is part of your personality.because that is all you experienced.loss and war.you define yourself as a warrior when they ask what is your personality.
but who would you be if you lived in a place without war and how would your personality develop there and what would you want to do.if there where no war.what would you say when they ask who you are then ,when you are not a warrior anymore practically.even if you have the ability to be one.
when you do not have to be on defense to live

also there is a big difference with someone who never lived at war. and someone who was there but left.
or someone who never lived would he still choose to be a soldier lol