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(Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

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(Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby Ambodexter » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:50 pm

I am not a narcissist. If you don't wan't to read posts by nons, skip this one. Still, thank you for hosting me.

Three years ago you helped me a lot in understanding my narcisstic and abusive father. I reached out to you instead to a support group on purpose. I wanted to understand narcissism, not live in an echo chamber of my own. I have a (half) brother who has been giving me a headache for the longest time. I am not sure whether he got "fleas" from our father or if he too is disordered. I idolized him for the largest part of my life and was in denial for the longest time. I went no-contact with both of them years ago. I have recently been discussing this with my mother (his step mother) and she says my brother is different from our father and that she can't quite put her finger on it. I would like to give you some examples and describe his behavior.

- Until I was about 9 or 10, I experienced him as sweet, caring and funny. His dark side was how irritable he was and that he had no tolerance for frustration. I often felt like my mom or his girlfriend both felt uneasy when that happened. I know I did. He's the kind of person who starts screaming because of video games or a lost ebay auction. Or giving you a condescending look staring you down when disagreeing with something you said.

- He also had this habit of taking photos of himself and printing his face on burned CDs and movies and hand those out to people. I didn't think much of it, other than it being silly. This is quite hysterical to me these days. I guess this is the early 2000s version of Narcissus and Echo.

- He feels very strong disdain for our Ndad and now it stands out how he would always put emphasis on how he looks like his mother, thinks like his mother and acts like his mother. He'd talk himself into this kind of rage all the time and argue with anybody about it. "We don't have anything alike, there is not one physical trait or character trait I have from him, we are completely different people. I am my mother's son, not my father's son. I will be a completely different father to my son" is what he kept saying. This always seemed to be a big part of his identity. Not being like his mother, but not being like our father. This is honestly one of the reasons our Ndad belittled him for, for not looking like him. Despite all the praise for his mother, he keeps lying to her. "I don't get a vacation this year". Yes, he did. He just went to the other side of the continent instead of seeing her. "I didn't borrow any money from my father". Yes, he did. And said it so his mother would also borrow him some. "I am incredibly sick today, I will call you back". No, he was not sick, and won't call back.

- He trapped himself in a marriage with a very mean, superficial and overall annoying woman who constantly nags and manipulates. Our father hilariously hates her, as do all the neighbors and colleagues and the mailman. Bottom line, they deserve each other. Unfortunately they dragged a kid into this. He doesn't give a rat's ass about her, but if someone were to make a remark about her he did not like, he would punish the person with the silent treatment. I believe this to be because he is secretly very upset with him and doesn't want to be confronted.

- The kid is a trainwreck about to happen. It was so terrible to watch. He begged my brother to spend more time with him. Over and over again. When he didn't get it, he started acting up for attention. The kid has antisocial traits and it honestly scared me. He wants many gifts, but they're never good enough and he tells you. He lies about arbitrary things. When he gets what he wants, he has this weird grin. There was this incident where he was apparently shoved down a set of stairs at school, but all the kids said he fell. I also know of one incident of animal cruelty, he tortured a snake. He also said he wants to kill my mother with a rocket launcher and shoot people. Yet when I tried to bring something up in the most gentle manner, I was given indimidating looks and dismissive replies followed by the silent treatment. My father had hundreds of affairs and is a sex addict. My brother also is quite adventerous in this department. This is where I draw another parallel to him. He has many illegitimate children, we don't know how many exactly. I am a spitting image of him. All the other kids come after their mothers. My brother's son? Looks exactly like he did that age. This is why I have come to believe the only reason he is doing this to himself is because he has his perfect little mirror image. I strongly do believe he would have left this woman otherwise. My nephew seems the typical GC. I witnessed my brother telling his son that the two of them are better than everybody else, that others are, quote, inferior.

- He didn't speak to me for two years. Not because there was a fallout or anything, he just wasn't approachable in any shape or form. Wouldn't answer his phone, call back or stop by. I found out in the meantime how he, in all honesty, made it to every birthday of his co-workers children. And to some of their weekend parties, too.

- He started to completely disregard me and my hobbies and interests at one point, after seeming interested and supportive for the first years of my life. At first I thought this was because of having different priorities as a husband and father. He would then also belittle people who I found sympathetic and spoke fondly of and become incredibly judgmental and mean spirited about just anybody. Started to doubt people's competence at their job and mocked their interests. He also became more and more antisocial towards pets, which disgusted me.

- Then he would start bringing his sons to events I begged him to come to, like my birthdays. So he could always leave after an hour and say his son has to sleep. He would continue doing this when I asked to meet up with him personally. The few times he was available, that is.

- When I developed a condition and health issues ensued, he was completely apathetic to it. He not only never asked how I was doing, but when he overheard other people speaking about it, he doubted the legitimacy of my condition.

- The evening I realized my brother became a different person was when he told me how "silly and childish" I was acting for asking him to call or visit me more often. He gave me this nonchalant lecture about how adults don't really talk to their parents or siblings any longer, that's what kids do. And that friends are also just not important when you have a job and "real issues". He said parents and siblings are people to fall back on when you need them to do something for you or lend you money. This then became a two part lecture in which he insisted I should try to borrow money from my father for something. To start a business. "It doesn't matter what, just get the money, he will give it to you. Just pretend you're interested in something".

- Asking "What are you doing tonight?" or "Do you have time?" turned into saying things like "If I need you, I'll know where to find you, because you don't go out with friends or anything. You're only sitting around at home, anyway" or "You seem to be really afraid of becoming independent. I wasn't like that. I became an adult quickly".

- Tried convincing me out of the blue that my mother and our father have some kind of conspiracy against me and want to abuse my name and credit for their businesses and that my mother only lets me live with her because she wants that out of me and that I will be financially and emotionally ruined by the time I will be 21. I was 19 then.

- One thing stood out to me. Shortly before going NC with our father, I spoke to my brother on the phone. It was the first and only time he called me back. I don't know why, but we spoke about our father. And my brother told me how he thinks he is sick in a way. That it's just "not normal how a parent doesn't care about their children at all. Every animal takes care of it's children". This happened after the lecture how dumb and immature I am for wanting to speak to my family and certainly made me listen up. I bit my tongue.

- Funnily he said, during the exact same conversation, that if his son decided he hated him and didn't want to talk to him any longer, he'd be happy with it. As he knows he raised him "well".

- I went no-contact after he threatened and belittled me. Two months later he disregarded my wish to not be contacted again and asked my mother for my phone number. When she told him I don't want to speak to him, he said something along the lines of "I understand that, I was just like that when I was young, she will come around". I don't know if he meant to taunt me or if he really just lives in his own universe these days.

Now, obviously people can be toxic without being personality disordered. Here's the thing. At the time he was around 25, I felt he started to change. Because of my personality disorder (avoidant), I read alot about this topic and how it's a no-go to diagnose teenagers and young adults, even if they display absolutely pathological behavior. Most psychologists or psychiatrists apparently start diagnosing people as personally disordered in their mid 20s, with few also diagnosing patients in their early 20s. Virtually all fellow disordered people I spoke to about this said they felt changes in their own behavior in their early to mid 20s.

I remember two versions of my brother. My father, on the other hand, always was like this. What do you guys think? Can you relate to my brother? Does it sound familiar? I've been asking myself so long whether these are fleas from living with our narcisstic father or whether it is NPD.
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby MeAgain » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:17 pm

I'm afraid I can't read long posts. But just a general point if I may. If you are from a narcissistic family that is automatically going to put you on the Narcissistic Spectrum. And especially if you are all the things you say; you're on it, I'm afraid. It's almost a default condition. Where low level narcissism ends and NPD starts is a very grey area that psychologists don't agree on.
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby Kimera » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:19 pm

Well, you have a possible case of fleas but no flying monkeys so you're probably ok.

(sorry Ech, I'll be good :P )

No one here is going to be able to tell you if your brother is a narcissist. I mean, the stuff you're describing sounds like a lot of messed up families I know, including mine.

Have you tried looking past the assumed diagnoses and potential disordered behavior to see the actual human being, who may be hurting and wanting to connect?
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby Ambodexter » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:53 pm

Absolutely. For over 10 years, before it escalated and he finally became violent. I knew what my father was and that I'd be better off cutting him off. But I didn't want to see this in my brother and looked at life with rose tinted glasses a lot. I made thousands of excuses for him, no matter how often he rejected, neglected or insulted me, defended him and denied to have seen the change in his behavior. My mother says my brother is an asshole, yes, but she doesn't see the malignancy of our father in him.

MeAgain wrote:I'm afraid I can't read long posts.


Quick summary: My brother changed his entire behavior around the time he turned 25 and I was trying to gauge what happened there exactly. I have AVPD. Seemed we developed in two different directions.
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby Akuma » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:11 am

What I rather ask myself is why this is so important to you. From what you describe you seem to initiate contact a lot, while he isnt interested. And when he doesnt react, you feel punished by "silent treatment". But if its his view and that he doesnt want to have contact with his siblings, thats his choice. You might not like it or have a lot of ideas why thats really the case, but ultimately its his choice and you cant do anything about it.
I would say that you having avoidant behaviour makes it hard for you to get what you want out of your brother from other people. But thats basically what you have to do, because in a way he is right. I find this annoying, too tbh that this childlike togetherness disappears quickly, but for adults thats really the case. The whole concept of brother, friendship etc. waters down pretty much and becomes some petty "call every other month because I need to borrow a drill" kind of thing. You have to take what you need from other sources, possibly from several.
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby Ambodexter » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:04 pm

I've gone no-contact and won't change that. I disagree. Where I'm from it is absolutely normal that siblings are friends and family is close. Cultural differences, I guess.

I used to initiate contact a lot because I loved him. Is that a good enough answer? Same reason my mom would call me or his mom would call him to ask if everything is alright. He told me he wanted to speak to me or see me. But I was always the one who had to arrange it. And often when I tried, he often turned me down. Other people would tell me he told them he missed me or meant to call. That's why I didn't give up hope. He could have told me he doesn't want to spend time with me or that he doesn't want me in his life. I didn't need anything from him, I wanted him in my life. It is like you say, he called sporadically when he needed something to borrow.
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby svenne » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:20 pm

Ambodexter wrote:I've gone no-contact and won't change that. I disagree. Where I'm from it is absolutely normal that siblings are friends and family is close. Cultural differences, I guess.

I used to initiate contact a lot because I loved him. Is that a good enough answer? Same reason my mom would call me or his mom would call him to ask if everything is alright. He told me he wanted to speak to me or see me. But I was always the one who had to arrange it. And often when I tried, he often turned me down. Other people would tell me he told them he missed me or meant to call. That's why I didn't give up hope. He could have told me he doesn't want to spend time with me or that he doesn't want me in his life. I didn't need anything from him, I wanted him in my life. It is like you say, he called sporadically when he needed something to borrow.

I don't really have any answers, but your post just touched me somehow. For me, I just never felt safe with family, and I don't feel that connected to them. But I care very much for my brother. Still I don't visit him. Or call him very often. Maybe that's why your post touched me.

So I do understand why you kept trying. But you'd probably be better of by learning to accept that your brother isn't very connected to anyone. Maybe you need to go through grief stages before you can really let go.
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby Ambodexter » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:54 pm

That's a nice thing to say. Thank you for telling me. I too never felt safe. It's not alright to say I loved him enough to let him tear me down, the correct way to word it is that I did not love myself enough to not let it happen. I know it's better for me when I don't see him. And I haven't thought about him in months now. But I was asked about the situation a couple of days ago and so I've been thinking about it again. My father is a narcissist and I understand the disorder. Which helped me heal. What it exactly is that caused my brother to change, I have never understood.
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Re: (Non wants opinions) Case of fleas or an ACON with NPD?

Postby svenne » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:23 am

Ambodexter wrote:That's a nice thing to say. Thank you for telling me. I too never felt safe. It's not alright to say I loved him enough to let him tear me down, the correct way to word it is that I did not love myself enough to not let it happen. I know it's better for me when I don't see him. And I haven't thought about him in months now. But I was asked about the situation a couple of days ago and so I've been thinking about it again. My father is a narcissist and I understand the disorder. Which helped me heal. What it exactly is that caused my brother to change, I have never understood.


Maybe some people with PD's get more disordered with age or maybe it's just more obvious when we are adults that something about us is off.
It's good for you to let him go. He probably cares for you in his own screwd up way, but you cannot count on him for anything.
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