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Have other narcissists behaved like this?

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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby Psycho Delica » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:34 am

Bitty the posts you're making in here are fantastic and extremely helpful. I can see so much of my own behavior in the way you're describing yourself.

The problem I am dealing with now though is I am now aware of this fake happy crazy bubbly persona I have been putting on in public all of my life so far to hide the true me, and I absolutely can not stand it! Whenever I slip into that character, I absolutely loath myself afterwards as I reflect over the interactions I had under that disguise. It's been really taking it's toll on me lately but it seems I am going through some kind of process of breaking out of that habit with the more self awareness that I am gaining. It's been pretty full on though realising how I am never my true self when in public and always trying to 'win people over' ... Ugh I despise that side of me now and so determined to break it.
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby bitty » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:06 pm

Pangloss and Delica, thank you both for your kind words.

Psycho Delica wrote:The problem I am dealing with now though is I am now aware of this fake happy crazy bubbly persona I have been putting on in public all of my life so far to hide the true me, and I absolutely can not stand it! Whenever I slip into that character, I absolutely loath myself afterwards as I reflect over the interactions I had under that disguise. It's been really taking it's toll on me lately but it seems I am going through some kind of process of breaking out of that habit with the more self awareness that I am gning. It's been pretty full on though realising how I am never my true self when in public and always trying to 'win people over' ... Ugh I despise that side of me now and so determined to break it.

I can identify with every word of this, except for the part about breaking out of the habit of 'being lovely'. I just can't do it, although every day I resolve to. As soon as I speak to someone, (the newsagent, when I buy my newspaper on the way to work), I'm cracking gags. I can no more resist doing this than I could eating a chocolate on the table before me.

You're not a narcissist though, are you? I don't imagine that you've treated your relatives in the way that I have.
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby Psycho Delica » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:28 am

bitty wrote:
You're not a narcissist though, are you? I don't imagine that you've treated your relatives in the way that I have.


I am not diagnosed but I don't believe a therapist can help me as I don't trust anyone but myself. The only time id go and see a therapist is to treat other issues, like anxiety. But I have suffered that my whole life as well as panic attacks so I have my little tricks now on how to cope with them.

I see myself a lot in the borderline traits but also have narcissistic traits. My parents were abusive physically and emotionally, and I was also forced into beauty pageants as a kid. And made to do a lot of competition acting. So I struggle now with a combo of self loath, insecurities, needing to be loved by all, needing to be admired and the center of attention, putting on performances while thinking I am also awesome at the same time but so sensitive to any form of criticism. And when I am angry I am very verbally abusive, and in the past have also been physically abusive. But I have been controlling the physical side of things now days since having kid as I so badly want to make the changes for them. I don't even smack them. I have at times lashed out at my son in the past which i feel so guilty for now and really work hard at controlling that when it comes to the kids. Whenever that happened, or the urges to do so come up now it feels like it's my mother coming out in me. Realising that now helps me control it as she's the last person id ever want to be.

I also either really like people or despise them. There is no middle ground. I find that takes it's toll on me. Something I really want to break.

My husband believes if I saw a therapist and got a diagnosis, id most likely get BPD. I am more reactive than the one who starts anything.
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby bitty » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:46 pm

I can see how a childhood such as yours would leave anyone fixated on admiration and approval, and probably holding in anger. I don't get a strong narcissistic vibe from your posts; I don't know much about bpd, but perhaps that is a more likely diagnosis for you. I wish you well with the changes that you are working on - I think that you'll do well.
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby Psycho Delica » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:49 pm

bitty wrote:I can see how a childhood such as yours would leave anyone fixated on admiration and approval, and probably holding in anger. I don't get a strong narcissistic vibe from your posts; I don't know much about bpd, but perhaps that is a more likely diagnosis for you. I wish you well with the changes that you are working on - I think that you'll do well.


Thanks Bitty I appreciate the feedback :) It all helps.
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby Pangloss » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:13 pm

I'm sorry I haven't replied, I keep forgetting my login and password. :?

Thank you bitty and PD, for sharing. I might not understand the whys but at least I can see the hows. If the wrong praise can bring so much uneasy pressure to bear on younger minds, I can't imagine the stress that baby pageants bring about for little ones. It's unhealthy how we're pitting children against each other. :|

bitty, since you can't control your reactions, how do you think you could have acted differently as an aware, should your mom not have passed away?

There is a spectrum, so I guess if you've not treated her too badly the occasions for conflict could have been greatly diminished?

As for assertiveness, I was wondering about that myself, as I always thought I was strong and clearheaded, but in fact assertiveness has little to do with strength but force of character.

If it is defined as "having one's way", then no, I have not been assertive as I cannot get the decisions I believe to be correct made. The more forceful, raging partner "wins" every time, yet we lost overall.

This impotence to direct my life towards the goals I care about contributed a lot to my depression - I felt like a prisoner without freedom to control and make decisions about my life, my children's lives and my future. No matter how sound my arguments, they do not matter.

I love my children a lot but often, I can't seem to get them to listen to me and do their part, study, behave, etc. I need to work on myself, to learn to assert in a way that does not lead to conflicts.
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby bitty » Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:31 pm

Pangloss wrote:bitty, since you can't control your reactions, how do you think you could have acted differently as an aware, should your mom not have passed away?

It isn't only chosing to behave differently; my basic mindset has changed gradually over time, and my sibling told me quite recently that I'm completely different to how I used to be. I think that the underlying need to win and diminish the other has gone now, (well, as much as it can), though I still have to make a conscious effort to be less selfish and controlling. I 'see' my sibling, and their underying feelings, in a way that I never used to.

During the last ten years or so of my father's life, after my mother died, I became slowly less nasty, (irritable and selfish), and I know that antidepressants helped a lot. We became close, as has happened with my sibling.

So I think that it could have been good with my mother. I treated her very badly - purely as a source of comfort, or a target for my anger if things weren't exactly right. I didn't see her as a person, or think about her feeings. I can't do it propery in retrospect, (I mean, really develop a sense of closeness), now that she's not here, although I got a slight sense of her just now as I typed the last couple of sentences.

Pangloss wrote:As for assertiveness, I was wondering about that myself, as I always thought I was strong and clearheaded, but in fact assertiveness has little to do with strength but force of character.

If it is defined as "having one's way", then no, I have not been assertive as I cannot get the decisions I believe to be correct made. The more forceful, raging partner "wins" every time, yet we lost overall.
Yes, I get what you say about the forceful, raging partner having their own way.

When I asked if you were assertive, it was partly because you wrote about your daughter not standing for any nonsense, didn't you, and almost feeling a bit scared of her? I'm sure that that was said lightheartedly, though.

As I grew older, my mother found it very difficult to show me basic cooking skills, for instance, as I was impatient and dismissive. She was the sort of person who would defend anyone else, not at all a pushover, yet she couldn't defend herself against my narcissistic behaviour. I don't know how I'd have reacted if she'd said, during my teens and twenties, "I won't be spoken to like that.", or, "Show some gratitude.", or, "Do you realise how tired I am, and how much I've done?" (I'm certainly not blaming her for my narcissism though; in fact I don't blame anyone.) I suspect that I wouldn't have reacted well, and I think that my mother knew this.

Pangloss wrote:This impotence to direct my life towards the goals I care about contributed a lot to my depression - I felt like a prisoner without freedom to control and make decisions about my life, my children's lives and my future. No matter how sound my arguments, they do not matter.

So you felt subdued and defeated, and not listened to? Hopefully that can start to change, now that you're no longer with your ex.

Pangloss wrote:I love my children a lot but often, I can't seem to get them to listen to me and do their part, study, behave, etc. I need to work on myself, to learn to assert in a way that does not lead to conflicts.

Give yourself a chance, you didn't have any control in your relationship with your ex, so you may have lost confidence in yourself. I'm sure that you've heard of the differences between being submissive, assertive or authoritative. Why not go to assertiveness classes? (Strangely enough, I find it difficult to be assertive; I bounce between extremes, which is possibly not surprising for a narcissist.)
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby Pangloss » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:18 pm

bitty, thank you for describing your experiences with your mom, it's quite eye-opening for me.

You seem to have developed a more empathetic persona towards your siblings, this "seeing" you mentioned? that is quite exciting, and I'm happy for you.

The regrets that you described does seem to indicate a change/shift, because the pwNPD I know don't seem to be able to express regret or apologize at all. It's like a huge humiliation.

In fact, it takes courage to admit to being wrong. Imagine a whole nation like Japan still waffling about their apology for invading and massacring millions during WW2, and rewriting/whitewashing history publicly.

Your mom teaching you basic cooking skills reminds me of my own efforts to help my daughter.

There's nothing light-hearted about my concerns about my daughter at all, in fact, I'm seriously worried. She has been chosen by her school's debate team as a short-list candidate for a special regional team, complete with expert training, etc. which will be very good for her development. I have helped her alot in preparations for her previous debates, but this time, she absolutely refused any help from me even though it would be a huge opportunity for her. I've looked at the topics, she's been given a tough position to take. She said she isn't going to prepare for it. It's a lot of prickly pride, and she is really rude to me.

I just have to learn to "let it go". If the door closes, it closes.

The problem with nascent NPD is that she can remain unaware all her life making mistake after mistake driven by her pride. I just have to learn to stand by, but I'm appalled frequently by her blatant lack of regard for others. For example, the lift of the apartment and the Lobby door buzzer broke down and she demanded that someone walk up and down 7 storeys to open the Lobby door for her when she could have just brought a set of keys to the Lobby with her.

She rudely shuts me off or hangs up every time I tried to "talk" to her - I guess to her it sounds like a lecture. :oops:

For now, I'm busy looking for a new employer and will just need to let her be. She might have inherited traits from my N mother-in-law.
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby bitty » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:32 pm

Sorry, Pangloss, I thought that your daughter was a little girl, for some reason. I hadn't realised that you had fears that she was a narcissist. All I can say to you is based on what I'd say to my mother if it were possible; I don't know how much of this applies to you.

Don't blame yourself or feel guilty. Don't sacrifice yourself. If she's like I was, your daughter won't appreciate what you do for her, in fact, she'll barely notice it - only to the extent that she'll expect your help, without really registering/caring about you and how you're feeling, and she'll be angry if the help or acquiescence isn't forthcoming.

Make sure that you see your friends, and do what you can to enjoy your life. Don't become a shadow, feeling that you must devote your life to worrying about and looking after your daughter, and making yourself ill in the process. You can offer your daughter help and support if she asks for it, but within limits; and helping your daughter won't make her feel closer to you. (I say that last bit because a therapist said to me once that maybe my mother was glad that I needed her.)

When I was rude or hurtful to my mother, she didn't say anything, she just went quiet. She didn't make a point of letting me know that she was hurt, but in retrospect, I could see that she was; I just didn't take any notice. I feel as though you should let your daughter know that her behaviour is unacceptable, because it would have been good for my mother to have been able to tell me, rather than being ground down by me. But I don't know how you'd do it without provoking anger. Perhaps you could speak to a therapist about that, or maybe there's someone reading this with a narcissistic child, who could help you.

Above all, don't give up the idea of a fulfilling life that you can enjoy with other people, because you deserve that, and also because not pursuing it won't help your daughter with her problems.

I don't want to depress you with what I've written, just really encourage you to do this:-
Pangloss wrote:I just have to learn to "let it go". If the door closes, it closes.

Yes, absolutely, spot on.

Pangloss wrote:For now, I'm busy looking for a new employer and will just need to let her be. She might have inherited traits from my N mother-in-law.

Sorry, Pangloss, I can't remember, was her father a narcissist? I agree that narcissism can be inherited.

I have to say that my regret concerning my mother is all for myself, as it means that I don't deserve to be happy. But, when I think back on times when I treated my father and sibling badly, there is real regret there, probably because I was able to become close to them, in a way that I didn't properly with my mother. (And because there is less shame attached.) I wish that I could get past the whole messy chunk of shame, (and resentment/anger - I read somewhere once that we always dislike on some level the people whom we have hurt), to just a simple, unclouded memory of who my mother was.

Also thank you, but it isn't really courageous of me to admit being wrong - I think that most self aware narcissists can do that.

I should add to the above - was there ever a time when your daughter was warm and loving? That would cast doubt on her being a narcissist, as opposed to someone who's developed strong narcissistic traits. (And of course I can't offer a diagnosis anyway.)
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Re: Have other narcissists behaved like this?

Postby Pangloss » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:38 pm

bitty, with your reflections and introspection, you truly don't seem to be a pwNPD. I don't know if you act differently in real life, but your persona here, do you feel it is your True Self? It doesn't sound like you're making an effort with mirrors to be what you are here, so I surmise this is TS.

Your mom is a memory now, but truthfully, she probably never stopped loving you, and probably forgave you for every time you were acting poorly towards her. She KNOWS you, probably like no other in the world. She isn't a doormat, she knows whom you are, and how you can't help being whom you are.

I never stopped loving my girl. She's still young, 14, bright, intelligent, and she has in her the ability to be very kind. She just seems prickly, and not too concerned about the feelings of others, yet she is capable of charity. I refuse to accept that she will not change or grow. She will, even if it's baby steps.

She suffered a lot of stress while I carried her. Incompetent ob-gyn mistook her size and thought she wasn't growing and told me to wait for the miscarriage, so I was stressed out and it must have affected her in the womb. She emerged as an insecure baby that cried often, without good reason, constantly fearful. I had to rock her to sleep every night, and she wouldn't sleep alone.

So she was a highly stressed baby and I guess I understand why she has grown up to be so prickly. I will keep trying though, to talk to her. Even if she refuses, the words will somehow stick in her mind and could have an effect, no matter how small.

So your mom probably knew why you were this way, it didn't make it easier for her, but she probably forgave and forgot, as I do with my girl.
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