What exactly counts as grandiosity?

I've always read that grandiosity is always present in NPD, whether overt or covert. And when I look up the term, it says it always involved an unrealistic sense of superiority and uniqueness.

But lets say someone is fixated on living up to a certain idea, which is not really superior or unique. For example, simply being an attractive young male who can get girls. This is not something which is perceived as superior or unique, but as a normal life experience which many have. Would this be considered grandiosity? If not, then what is the term for a fixation on a normal, non-grandiose image?

wodienjong wrote:But lets say someone is fixated on living up to a certain idea, which is not really superior or unique.

What you describe could be the "inner narrative." It's a false sense of self, the "now," historical experiences (some enlarged, some, such as the self-defeating actions, minimized), the future expectation of who you'll be (experience, fulfillment). The emotion of hope (fighting frustration).

I don't think unique means imagining yourself a great discoverer of a cure for cancer. It's that you don't see yourself as you are unique, instead you have to be someone else. The narrative is like that expectation (and rationalization of the now, past, future). Imagining yourself conspicuously wealthy, inordinate free time. Infinitesimally unique, not infinitely.

I think the important thing is how much of that daydreaming occurs. How dependent are you on it to "color" your existence in the world.

Mindfullness meditation might help combat unnecessary daydreaming. If it were pathological narrative, mm might help show the difference between grounded/centered versus the compulsion to escape that state. For me, it's pretty noticeable.

Truth too late wrote:

wodienjong wrote:But lets say someone is fixated on living up to a certain idea, which is not really superior or unique.

What you describe could be the "inner narrative." It's a false sense of self, the "now," historical experiences (some enlarged, some, such as the self-defeating actions, minimized), the future expectation of who you'll be (experience, fulfillment). The emotion of hope (fighting frustration).

I don't think unique means imagining yourself a great discoverer of a cure for cancer. It's that you don't see yourself as you are unique, instead you have to be someone else. The narrative is like that expectation (and rationalization of the now, past, future). Imagining yourself conspicuously wealthy, inordinate free time. Infinitesimally unique, not infinitely.

I think the important thing is how much of that daydreaming occurs. How dependent are you on it to "color" your existence in the world.

Not sure if I am following. What do you mean by "coloring" your existence? And what kind of "daydreaming" are you talking about?

It's a false sense of self, the "now," historical experiences (some enlarged, some, such as the self-defeating actions, minimized), the future expectation of who you'll be (experience, fulfillment). The emotion of hope (fighting frustration).

And I am not following what you are saying here specifically.

Mindfullness meditation might help combat unnecessary daydreaming. If it were pathological narrative, mm might help show the difference between grounded/centered versus the compulsion to escape that state. For me, it's pretty noticeable.

What exactly is a "pathological narrative"?

wodienjong wrote:Not sure if I am following. What do you mean by "coloring" your existence?

I've described it as a low-level schizophrenia. It's a low-level disconnection with reality. There is an undue faith or need (desire, addiction?) placed on the inner narrative (the confabulated sense of self). It's not an accurate sense of self in the "now" (distinguishing past, present, future). Even casting people into the narrative (not distinguishing between you and they, through projection caused by the narrative being applied to them.).

If you read Vaknin's 9-part essay you'll know more than you probably wanted to. The emphasis he places on it makes it an integral part. My experience has been similar.

"According to Freud, narcissists are dominated by their Ego to such an extent that the Id and Superego are neutralised."

I was under the impression that covert narcissists are dominated by overly powerful superego.

wodienjong wrote:"According to Freud, narcissists are dominated by their Ego to such an extent that the Id and Superego are neutralised."
I was under the impression that covert narcissists are dominated by overly powerful superego.

That's my impression and experience too. The way I translate Freud's tripartate view to myself:

1. Ego
The part of me which fell asleep at the wheel, compelled to support/play-into what was/can/is happening inside (the FS and the narrative). I call that my Agent-self.[1] I ignored my TS, or was driven by its emotions. But, I viewed my FS as my TS. And, the FS was driven by (seduced into, this is a different topic) by what I call the "Presence", it's at the other end of what Vaknin refers to as the "narrative" (connected to the FS).

It's the part of me which doubted, which knew there was something wrong, and I needed to "give in" to the drive to try harder, again, etc. It's the part which took over when I accepted something was terribly wrong (my shattering 2.5 years ago). It's the "me" who is writing this, who can be "now" and disconnected from the narrative, and has control over the FS's capabilities.

It could actually be part of my FS, or TS. I have no way of knowing. This is DIY (and I'm planing my own pacemaker transplant soon. ). I'm just describing it in terms that have made sense to me. I've read about "Agent Self" and that's it. I then find that in Freud's Ego.

2. Id
My True Self. This was the last thing I identified. Maybe I should have sooner. There's not much there. My first intro to it was a mental image of being on the top of a tall NY building overlooking the city at night, and the door opened to my TS. Something that had never experienced anything.

I've come to believe the Presence is disconnected memories of my TS. I think there is a "narrative" connection between the TS and the Presence the same way there is between the FS and Presence. It's not as noticeable, but there's some kind of interaction between the TS and FS through that Presence. I can't entirely explain it.

3. Superego
My False Self. This seemed to be multi-faceted. I discovered this over time. But, I was aware of it (generally) shortly after discovering the narrative (which was almost immediate upon learning of it). One facet is the hyper-critic. The other facets can be strengths and used carefully. Without those other facets, there's nothing. Because I learned I could isolate and ignore my narrative, I had a whim 12-18 months ago to block FS. That was not pleasant. There is a balance that can be walked between the TS and FS. But, I don't see the hyper-critic in it.

I seemed to have relegated the hyper-critic to a conscience I didn't have before. It's a little more neutral, more conscientiously engaged inward and out (empathy). It's kinder to me, and tied to how it got there (the awareness) it's kinder outwards (it can relate more to others).

My point is, the other parts of the FS seem less maniacal. They're more neutral. But, they can still get emotionally invested the wrong way if I'm not grounded/centered (if I lost track of the narrative and started feeling comfy with the lie). That's when something unproductive seems to occur between the FS and TS. But, without those parts, doing something, being engaged with sources of supply, there's nothing there. It's just me and my TS which I feel much more comfortable with compared to that accidental exposure a year ago. But, it's still vastly less than the cozy lie.

I like writing about it because it makes me revisit what I know, and how I would revise it slightly (such as the narrative being the apparent denominator between dysphoria and depression. Feeling vs numbness. It seems like the same kind of "narrative process" is occurring on the low side like it does on the functioning (supply-gathering) side. It's just gathering it from the TS in what I'm concluding is maladaptive way. It's using the lie to avoid reality: nothingness.

The last time I wrote about it was here. I went into more detail there. Above I went over the structure at a high level, and filled in some things I'd emphasize now that I didn't then. Otherwise it's much the same. I might say I'm more familiar with my TS.

I could go into the Presence-Narrative more. That's kind of an interesting topic. I've written about it in different places:

http://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic163581-20.html#p1689736
narcissistic-personality/topic163364.html
post1690478.html?hilit=vibe#p1690478
narcissistic-personality/topic163319-10.html#p1682959
narcissistic-personality/topic163319-10.html#p1683041
narcissistic-personality/topic164252-10.html#p1695432

I should do a single post about that.

[1] EDIT: I found where I got "Agent-self" from. It's here. I linked to it from this thread where I talked about it too. (I really need to condense this into one thing.).

Truth too late wrote:(I really need to condense this into one thing.).

Yes, please do. I'm not being sarcastic, I just would like to read a simplified version of what you mean. If I concentrate on different aspects, I can sometimes understand them, but it's hard to grasp the overall concept of what you describe. Sorry, that must be annoying, when you've spent a lot of time clarifying your view of how your mind works.

I think that it would help me to identify and isolate the times when I'm being fake. I can do that to some extent now, but it's easy to slide into, when I'm not monitoring my motivation. Being able to pinpoint different aspects of my psyche operating would help me.

Truth too late wrote:

narcissistic-personality/topic163581-20.html#p1689736
narcissistic-personality/topic163364.html
post1690478.html?hilit=vibe#p1690478
narcissistic-personality/topic163319-10.html#p1682959
narcissistic-personality/topic163319-10.html#p1683041
narcissistic-personality/topic164252-10.html#p1695432

I should do a single post about that.

[1] EDIT: I found where I got "Agent-self" from. It's here. I linked to it from the following thread. (I really need to condense this into one thing.).

narcissistic-personality/topic165068.html#p1703681

I'm sure I gave you way more than you wanted. However, I found another and thought I might as well add it here just so it's more easily referenced.

There was also one link I kept where I referred to it as the "narrative monkey" for the first time -- which I identified with the Beatles ("Everybody's got something to hide"). It's not much of a post, but it explains when I began describing the secret part of myself as a monkey (bananas are supply, flinging poo is rage). I kept this link with the others because I thought it was significant in that regard. But, you probably wouldn't. I'll add it here just for completeness.

narcissistic-personality/topic163147.html#p1687448

That's everything I kept a link to as specifically dealing with the narrative. I can just refer to this post from now on.

bitty wrote:

Truth too late wrote:(I really need to condense this into one thing.).

Yes, please do. I'm not being sarcastic, I just would like to read a simplified version of what you mean.

I don't know if it gets any simpler than that. There may be a detail here or there in the different posts. A different "spin." For example, I replied to @akuma about it in my movie Memento (topic164262). That could have said some things differently due to the subject matter (the disassociatve element of how the narrative revises "cause and effect" which allows repeating patterns to go unnoticed, albeit a certain knowledge something is wrong.).

I don't know if I'll do it soon because this stuff is taxing and I'm already facing some new stuff. But, my goal was to read through all those posts and distill what seemed relevant into a single "essay."

The most recent structural description was what I posted above to @wood, which filled in some newer information which clarifies the last time I described it all in one place (the TV On The Radio post ).

I would look at those two. If you want to see potentially different "spin" (how I relate it to examples) the other posts would be good.

One more link: This was the "Meet the Family" post I made describing AS/FS/TS as Liota/Walken/Tarantino.

narcissistic-personality/topic163581-60.html#p1752385

Well, that's an improvement on what I had. Stuff's closer to one place (in 3 posts close together now).

wodienjong wrote:"According to Freud, narcissists are dominated by their Ego to such an extent that the Id and Superego are neutralised."
I was under the impression that covert narcissists are dominated by overly powerful superego.

I've been thinking about that more. Maybe he's misinterpreting or simplifying Freud? (I don't know.).

If I tried to force my view of myself into that statement, the best I can do is say my Agent-self (which I relate to Freud's Ego) became engaged with the inner fiction. I have felt like it was addicted to it, or lazily compliant, a spectator. But, it could have had more responsibility in enabling/encouraging it. It could be the creator. In that case I could see how half the quoted statement is true.

I can definitely agree the Id (TS) was forgotten about. It's very easy to say the Ego (AS) was out of touch with it. It was just a reactive existence. I believe the reactivity came from the TS. It was/is a stunted/immature existence.

If the Superego is intended to be healthy, then I can see how my FS wasn't and it replaced what I understand the Superego to be.

I could also be drawing the lines completely wrong. I'm just seeing it as it has looked to me (and evolved) over time. I have no idea how it ties into Freud's view, nor whether Vaknin might be applying his own color to Freud (the same way I relate the Tripartite self in my own homegrown terms).

I know Vaknin goes into detail in Chapter 7. It's evident there that he has his own terminology like I do. I can relate his to mine to a large extent. If you proceed to Chapter 8 there's some more info about it.