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Covert narcissism - Should I see a specialist?

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Covert narcissism - Should I see a specialist?

Postby Anthony2015 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:53 pm

I apologize for the length of this post and for using this forum as a sounding board, but I needed to vent and get an opinion or two on whether I am reading too much into my behavior or need to obtain professional assistance from a specialist.

I am a lawyer in my late 20s who has never been in a romantic relationship that lasted for longer than a month. I do have about ten long-term friendships, but these have all definitely peaked (in the sense that they will not grow deeper). I have always believed the following about myself:

[*][That I am intelligent;
[*]That I am funny;
[*]That I am moral;
[*]That I am kind.

I have been told that I am “miserable”, “always a chore and never a pleasure” and simply “a [four letter insult]”. These comments obviously don’t sit well with how I would like to think of myself.

I know that I can be a disengaged bore and inconsiderate at times, but I have always ascribed my difficulties in social situations to my horrible teenage years. I was bullied constantly between the ages of 12 and 16 and didn’t have a real conversation with anyone outside my immediate family for a very long time, so my youth was dominated by depression, anxiety, social phobia and bouts of internalized rage.

I have pieced myself together over the years with the help of a therapist, establishing friendships and a career that I actually enjoy. The therapist was of the firm opinion that I did not have any personality disorders, although there was much I did not tell him. I had hoped that I would continue down a steady path of recovery and improvement, but I hit two roadblocks:

[*]I usually cannot really listen to other people, preventing friendships from developing any real emotional depth.
[*]I cannot focus on my work unless it is uniquely challenging or novel. I avoid getting into trouble, but my performance is usually well below my best about 80% of the time, so I will never fulfill my professional potential.

Googling these particular issues led me to a self-diagnosis of ADHD (and I still suspect that I have it and have arranged for a professional consultation), but I recently read an interesting/amusing quote by Orson Welles concerning Woody Allen:

“He is arrogant. Like all people with timid personalities, his arrogance is ­unlimited. Anybody who speaks quietly and shrivels up in company is unbelievably ­arrogant. He acts shy, but he’s not. He’s scared. He hates himself, and he loves himself, a very tense situation. It’s people like me who have to carry on and pretend to be modest. To me, it’s the most embarrassing thing in the world—a man who presents himself at his worst to get laughs, in order to free himself from his hang-ups. Everything he does on the screen is therapeutic.”

This description really resonated with me and made me consider for the first time whether a person with severe anxiety and social fears could also love with themselves in an unhealthy manner. I had always discounted being a narcissist out of hand, but my reading has led me to learning about covert narcissists. I am torn about whether I am such a person.

In favor:

[*]I have fantasies that will consume my internal thoughts for hours at a time: moving to a new city so that I can ‘be myself’; doing something heroic/amazing in a manner that it public and undeniable; impressing my ‘betters’ with a great argument or joke; or defeating/killing people who I do not know. A consistent feature of these fantasies is that my appearance is radically different and more attractive; where is my sense of self?
[*]My reaction to nonconstructive criticism, such as the comments above, is a terrible internal rage. My mind either races furiously for hours or it simply seizes up, accompanied by what could only be described as a burning sensation in my temples. Even constructive criticism – like formal interview from a feedback – can be very hard to read. I should add that I haven't experienced a 'rage' in at least a year.
[*]My instinctive response to hearing laughter on the street is to assume that I am being mocked, although I do tell myself to wise up almost immediately.
[*]I am far more alive and funny when there is the potential to receive a lot of narcissistic supply. For example, if I am travelling alone and meet a group of strangers, I can charm and amuse them almost effortlessly. On the other hand, I am mentally dead when speaking to people who I already know and don’t care to impress.
[*]My lowest points come when my narcissistic supply is utterly exhausted. I once sat in a dark room for several hours, thinking about suicide, because I had not heard from any of my friends in three weeks. Some people had contacted me, of course, but this did nothing for me as I had wanted to hear from others.
[*]I have inexplicably hurt people. A friend was telling me about her beloved and aged cat, prompting me to say “So I guess he will die soon then.” I don’t know why I said this or what I got out of it.
[*]I will simply ignore any romantic overtures from a woman who I do not find attractive. They either stop speaking to me or vent their frustration at my lack of emotional engagement (source of the “@@@@@@@” quote above).
[*]My parents were emotional wrecks. My father grew up in a home where his father and older siblings routinely beat him; he treated my mother badly (transforming from charming to abusive after the marriage) and died with perhaps three friends in the world. My mother was raised by a woman who became totally withdrawn following her husband’s horrific death and always played favorites with her children. She has been single since divorcing my father twenty years ago and has some very unhealthy views about other people. My overriding memory of her from childhood is that she would always be furious about something when she arrived home from work and would blow up at anyone who seemed to be enjoying themselves. It must have baffled me that she had bought a PC (without prompting) but condemned using it as a total waste of time.

Against:

[*]I have no sense of entitlement. When I didn’t get a job that I desperately wanted, I knew it was because I had not prepared for the interview properly. Similarly, my personality is to blame for my social failures, not people failing to recognize that I am simply amazing. My inability to fire on all cylinders in my daily life is not the fault of others. My peers as a teenager are the only people that I feel have acted towards me maliciously and who I struggle not to despise.
[*]Narcissists supposedly have no sense of humor. I definitely do, although I should add that I get a real charge out of saying something funny (I am actually overwhelmed by this feeling if everyone loves it) and feel embarrassed if a joke falls flat.
[*]I am very alert to other people being overlooked or left out, although I am unsure whether this is true empathy or simply squirming at a horrible feeling that I am all too familiar with.
[*]If empathy extends to all living things, rather than just humans, I must feel it. I have enjoyed raising packs of kittens and go out of my way to spare spiders or other living things that I find in my house.
[*]Presents that I put a bit of thought into are usually very well received; I am capable of figuring out what others want.
[*]I do not tell any lies of consequence, exaggerate my accomplishments or try to manipulate other people towards my own ends (I despise mind games and don’t engage with those who play them). The urge to mildly and pointlessly exaggerate is definitely there, but I keep it in check.
[*]I took anti-depressants last year for six months and my unhealthy fantasies ceased. I was also much more energetic with people who I already knew and the self-consciousness, while present, definitely abated.

So, I hope you have enjoyed these 1,400 words about me (maybe I am a narcissist). How concerned should I be?
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Re: Covert narcissism - Should I see a specialist?

Postby MeAgain » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:06 pm

Welcome to the Forum Anthony. Move to England my friend. Lots of American CNs do. Our lifestyle and national character is better suited to you.
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Re: Covert narcissism - Should I see a specialist?

Postby Ladywith3cats » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:11 pm

Hi Anthony,
While I can't diagnose you, from what you have said, covert narcissism does seem like a likely possibility. You see, I just had my own "epiphany" a month ago -- I came to these forums in a dissociative panic because I was finally seeing myself the way others had always seen me (and I always felt like such a victim, but I was actually a passive aggressive abuser--although usually codependent to a narc higher on the spectrum, which cNPDs usually are when they pair up). My "checklist" of N traits is almost the same as yours, although I'm a bit more empathy-challenged than you are (not completely lacking though). Everything else is pretty much like yours.

I know without having a professional diagnosis that I have NPD (I'm already BPD/Avoidant) and in fact covert Narcissism is often confused with Avoidant PD, BPD and Aspergers.

I was convinced for 10 years I had Aspergers, but with my coming to self awareness I had to throw that label away and adopt a new one I had very negative associations with (NPD), having always felt like a victim rather than someone who preys on others for supply. The cognitive dissonance associated with coming to awareness as myself as cNPD nearly shattered me but was ultimately almost a spiritual experience and now I'm so grateful.

I always wondered why I felt a certain empathy for narcissists who dislike their disorder, sometimes more so than the victims who talked about their abusers (I've run an ACON blog for a year) and I could never figure out why; now I know why. I could relate to them because that was me. They mirrored me. I feel very much at home here on this forum too.

My worst narcissistic traits are inability to listen or have true empathy (which is a big reason I avoid people and am so shy and socially awkward--because inside I have no idea who I am and am afraid of that void being exposed--it's a lot of effort to keep up the mask); a false humility/self deprecating demeanor that lays on top of a huge well of envy, rage and entitlement; always thinking how things will affect me even in situations where my own needs shouldn't be of concern; and grandiosity that appears when I'm getting a lot of supply. In addition I still have issues with my BPD rages and ambivalence, although that's gotten a lot better due to using DBT skills I leared when I was first dx'd in 1996--btw DBT has some positive effects on NPD too.

A person with these traits can never be happy or enjoy the moment, or have close relationships with others, because everything always cycles back to them and they are always obsessed over the impression they are making on others. It's never about fair give and take, it's all getting supply, although a covert is "nicer" about it and can seem humble on the surface.

It's weird using all these terms in reference to myself, but I think becoming self aware was the best thing that ever happened to me, because now I can feel real change is possible.

As for seeing a therapist, I definitely recommend it, as long as you find one who treats Cluster B disorders, including NPD. It's sometimes hard to find one (and in the US most insurance companies will not pay claims with such a dx, so long term psychotherapy for NPDs is pretty much limited to the rich who can pay out of pocket).

In my case, I'm doing my own self-therapy due to not having insurance or being able to be a "guinea pig" at a univesity psychology program due to distance. So far, it's having results. I wouldn't recommend self therapy, but it's better than nothing and the programme I devised for myself (after doing a LOT of reading and research) seems to be working. If you're interested, you can look under my thread called, "My 6 Point Healing Program for NPD" (it might be on page 2 now). You can also visit my blog about healing NPD/BPD, which is in my signature. I hope you stop by.

I'm not trying to get "supply" by mentioning these things but I really think you may find them useful. I also recommend reading Dr. James F. Masterson's books about covert (closet) NPD and his other books about healing the narcissistic and borderline disorders. His books are readable and he's had success healing patients with these disorders.
BPD/AvPD; PTSD; Dysthymia; GAD; NPD (fragile/covert type); Seasonal Affective Disorder; Myers-Briggs INFJ (I know the rainbow colors make me look like an HPD. Deal with it).
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Re: Covert narcissism - Should I see a specialist?

Postby Après L Orage » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:44 pm

Anthony2015 wrote: I have pieced myself together over the years with the help of a therapist, establishing friendships and a career that I actually enjoy. The therapist was of the firm opinion that I did not have any personality disorders, although there was much I did not tell him.


What about a second diagnostic from a therapist specialized in disorder like NPD?

Anthony2015 wrote:[*]Narcissists supposedly have no sense of humor. I definitely do, although I should add that I get a real charge out of saying something funny (I am actually overwhelmed by this feeling if everyone loves it) and feel embarrassed if a joke falls flat.


Not so true. Most pwNPD on this forum, for example, seem to possess a sense of humor. Most pwNPD do not seem to like being made fun of though. Probably because it causes a narcissistic injury,and it is internalized as "I am a piece of dirt".

-- Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:49 pm --

Ladywith3cats wrote:
My worst narcissistic traits are inability to listen or have true empathy (which is a big reason I avoid people and am so shy and socially awkward--because inside I have no idea who I am and am afraid of that void being exposed--it's a lot of effort to keep up the mask); a false humility/self deprecating demeanor that lays on top of a huge well of envy, rage and entitlement; always thinking how things will affect me even in situations where my own needs shouldn't be of concern; and grandiosity that appears when I'm getting a lot of supply. In addition I still have issues with my BPD rages and ambivalence, although that's gotten a lot better due to using DBT skills I leared when I was first dx'd in 1996--btw DBT has some positive effects on NPD too.


It seems like you are having a good grasp over what is not working for you.
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Re: Covert narcissism - Should I see a specialist?

Postby Ladywith3cats » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:06 pm

Après L Orage wrote:
Anthony2015 wrote:

Anthony2015 wrote:[*]Narcissists supposedly have no sense of humor. I definitely do, although I should add that I get a real charge out of saying something funny (I am actually overwhelmed by this feeling if everyone loves it) and feel embarrassed if a joke falls flat.


Not so true. Most pwNPD on this forum, for example, seem to possess a sense of humor. Most pwNPD do not seem to like being made fun of though. Probably because it causes a narcissistic injury,and it is internalized as "I am a piece of dirt".


I agree. I have seen most Ns can laugh and aren't always serious, but it's really hard on us when the joke is at our expense. As a covert I try to hide my anger/hurt and joke back, but it never goes over very well and people can usually tell I'm offended/hurt anyway. That's why I stay away from people.
I also don't care for those old fashioned jokes you have to "get." It's not that I can't understand the joke, but that I always feel pressure to "get it" and spend the whole time they're telling me the joke worrying that I might not get it and they'll think I'm stupid. :oops: :?

It's a self fulfilling prophecy too, because I spend so much time stressing over maybe not getting the joke that I wind up *not* getting it! And then feeling stupid when I have to fake-laugh.
Most people always want to tell you those kind of jokes and I stress too much about it.
I much prefer random, goofy, wtf humor you don't have to "get." Like Roz Chast cartoons. 8)
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Re: Covert narcissism - Should I see a specialist?

Postby Après L Orage » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:01 pm

Ladywith3cats wrote:I agree. I have seen most Ns can laugh and aren't always serious, but it's really hard on us when the joke is at our expense. As a covert I try to hide my anger/hurt and joke back, but it never goes over very well and people can usually tell I'm offended/hurt anyway. That's why I stay away from people.
I also don't care for those old fashioned jokes you have to "get." It's not that I can't understand the joke, but that I always feel pressure to "get it" and spend the whole time they're telling me the joke worrying that I might not get it and they'll think I'm stupid.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy too, because I spend so much time stressing over maybe not getting the joke that I wind up *not* getting it! And then feeling stupid when I have to fake-laugh.
Most people always want to tell you those kind of jokes and I stress too much about it.


:lol: (laughing with you not at you!)
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