Losing hope

What were you depressed about when you experienced those cycles?

As i understand it, i just felt, as time passed, more pressure to get it together and more despair that the situation hadn't been made better.

I just feel that i can't live like this, with so much instability,with low self esteem that makes me avoid doing the simplest things or makes me avoid things that would benefit me. It's that difference between the things i do and the things i would like to do and be or expect of myself that makes me depressed.

It sounds like you only just found out about NPD, or perhaps I misunderstood? And what do you mean by True Nature?

Well, i sort of realized that i was focusing too much on myself, making myself the victim when in fact no one had wronged me, not at least so much that i needed to react the way i did. I saw myself through a chain of events, like a nuclear reaction that showcased a lot of my shortcomings when it comes to how i view the world, myself , how i approach different situations and people in general.
I`m not diagnosed by a professional, it's just that i've recognized myself in the symptoms that overt narcissist exhibit.

I feel like i don't really know what my true nature is. I exhibit a range that goes from respectful, kind, well tempered, etc. - everything i would like to always be - up to a melt down state where people can only think of me as crazy; aggressive, envious, a gossiper or something else equally disgusting or bad. It can also be constant whining that has no end which also seems really unpleasant. I don`t really have to be in an 'excited' state actually to start behaving badly.

What i'm trying to say is...i'm not sure about my motives when it comes to behavior which i think is appropriate. I`m not sure i trust myself. Am i doing this or that just to calm my anxieties, feel secure or get a boost from some attention only to later slip into old and bad patterns?

eh, turns out i took too long to write my reply.

What i was depressed about...Well, feeling bad all the time, mood swings, feeling like a failure when it comes to my 'career', feeling bad for the things i did to other people, feeling hopeless.

I`m not diagnosed its just that the symptoms and signs of overt npd seem to fit me. But i've reminded myself about covert narcissism in the last week or so after i finally mustered up the courage to apologize to someone i felt i behaved badly to, someone who in my mind had no obligation to be gentle with me after that apology. I sort of left myself vulnerable in that situation and expected the worst but everything turned out great so maybe that shook me up a bit and made me realize that i should expect better from people and stop being scared and paranoid and helped me see thing from another perspective. I dunno...i could talk a long time about a lot of things because i`m not quite sure about it all and probably have a lot to discover but i also like to whine and talk a lot about myself and my problems.

True nature? I think i`m nice, considerate, at ease with myself, etc. quite often but i can also fall into dark places with rage, envy, jealousy, whining...I can be two faced as people like to say and that makes me question whether i`m good or bad and what sort of motivation do i have for the behavior i truly believe to be good...maybe it's covering some selfish motive, maybe i truly have good sides. who knows

Merida wrote:
I actually wonder if it's not genetic, in my case. I look at pictures and even at 6 months old I seemed pretty nasty and mean. Do you feel like NPD was caused by your upbringing?

I made an account just to respond to this. It may be a little offtopic, but I can relate to this 100%: I also, when look at my photos when I was 12 months or 2 years old looked, exactly as you said, "nasty" and "mean", never really smiling or laughing genuinely. Also it was visible from early on how exuding with anger I am, which really affected (coupled with anxiety) my looks.

I was diagnosed by psychiatrists differently: one as a bipolar, another with borderline and narcisstic traits. Well, I did research on my own and the best description of my behaviour and internal dynamics, as I believe, is covert narcissism. It would explain depersonalization also (lack of the feeling of self).

So, to answer your question, I'm glad that someone else have made this observation, I think the disorder has strong genetical basis. In my case this genetics were coupled with narcisstic father (unfulfilled artist) who really confused me in childhood: he told me about love that he has for me and my sibling, yet as if nothing has happened, planned to just simply abandon our family and go abroad. I was confused as to what emotions are and if you can act like that at the same time feeling them. But I believed him and his lectures, which was probably the worst decision I could have made in my life. He never earned money and didn't thought it was his responsibility to do so. With this combo, genetics and upbringing, it is hard not to be a narcissist. Nevertheless, I think it is mainly genetics. My brother is totally different from me, although he was also negatively affected by this upbringing (especially in terms of emotional development). Btw, I am a male.

At least you are recognizing that the diagnosis of NPD has some truth to it. It may be painful to know it, but you at least understand that you have NPD and have learned what your behavior has caused. I don't know how old you are, but there is still time to try different therapists until one clicks and you find some progress from therapy.

I have an older sister who has NPD but has never sought therapy. It always had to be about her, nobody else. She has refused to seek psychotherapy or any counseling. Her difficult, arrogant and self-obsessed behavior has driven one family member after another to leave her, including her two grown children and an ex-husband (he was a psychologist, the irony), as well as two business partners with whom she had fought in one protracted lawsuit after another. There is no one else in her family who has this disorder. The woman is now nearing her 70's and lives alone.

I recognise that NPD is a mental personality disorder. Whether NPD is due to lack of neurotransmitters that triggers empathy for others within the brain, to genes, or to environment or a combination of those factors, is up for a lot of debate. The one thing I do understand about NPD is that NPD behavior eventually drives away those closest to the person with NPD. There is a limit to most ppl's patience.

I sincerely wish you luck/perseverance and hope you don't end up like my sister.

Well, there are many types of narcissists: some are shrewd and manipulative, some are not. My problem is anger: people avoid me, because they feel "the negative vibe", although I act nicely, but there is a difference between being kind and acting kindly naturally and being angry and forcing oneself to act kindly. The second is self-destructive, but I have no real alternative so I choose it, but it often doesn't work and I end up alone anyways. In terms of manipulation and shrewdness, I, as an "emotionally retarded" person was often a victim, very naive sometimes also. I find useful Sam Vaknin writings , he wrote how foolish and easy to manipulate covert narcissist can be.

I also met, maybe not other narcissists ( I think these are really rare, contrary to popular opinion), but borderline people, and failed to see what was behind their behaviour. I saw only surface: that is, an irritable person. What I didn't saw was how insecure and self-hating that person really is.

Lack of empathy is prevalent in all types of narcissism, but the causes of it can be different: in my case it is a flight or fight response and preoccupation with myself, if you feel that everybody is or may be against you no matter how you act, life becomes something like survival and in this situation every being is more concerned about themselves rather than others. @Addx wrote about it much on this forum, his posts are really insigthful.

Narcissists very rarely arrive at conclusion that there is something bad about them, as in the case of your sister, and it is a must to start any changes. Facing all these problems and realizing them is a psychological feat. But sometimes in order to do so one needs trust, and I being deceived by people in my life - first in family, then in relationships, thought that only I can solve my problems and shouldn't open to anybody. In fact it was me who was paranoid about being deceived not the others. I have a feel that sometimes nons, as those more conscious and stronger individuals, exploit gullible narcissist playing on his weaknesses (which he/she has many).

@Merida, the only think that comes to my mind about your situation is this: I often read your posts and find them informative, you have the courage to confront who you are and share your insights with us. It is a big contribution, especially when you consider how rare it is for a narcissist to do such things, Your contribution is helpful for me, and I think it may be further used in discovering what the narcissism really is and how it works (no exaggeration here, who else if not narcissists themselves can give valid information, be it directly or indirectly).

Narceez,

I don't perceive my sister as a "bad" person, it's her behavior due to her NPD disorder that is bad. She will never seek any help for what is the destructive part of her NPD, the alienating effect her behavior has on others, especially on those closest to her. Her relatives and I have tried to understand what she means when she says that certain ppl are out to "get" her, when for the life of us, we can't figure out who that could be. She came from a family with loving parents, her sisters and I can attest to that, yet it is confounding when she accuses her parents of "abuse", as none of us were abused by our parents.

So, in one sense the cause of this sister's NPD is probably not environmental, but perhaps genetic or physical as in not having enough neural transmitters in the brain to trigger empathy for others, or both factors. Those with NPD, especially if they're not aware of their disorder, sometimes blame all their problems or failings in life on other ppl, and it seems to be terribly convenient to blame the parents, who else? This sister very conveniently creates a lie and believes it to be the absolute truth, it's not a wonder she thinks she's done nothing wrong, but she believes everybody else to be wrong. A mind-twisting tactic, and it often has others scratching their heads, when they know otherwise. I mean to say this not in a negative way, I'm speaking from experience.

Merida wrote:
Do you feel like NPD was caused by your upbringing?

Yes.
IMO, we all have our own genes that influence our personality types, but NPD is a personal disorder, and according to DSM personal disorder is diagnosed when there are enough personality traits to affect our lives. It is a defence mechanism that comes as automatic defence from the unhealthy parenting and inability of our parents to give us enough love and to permit us to be ourselves. It is also their inability to handle things in life the healthy way, and we grow up being thought wrong life lessons. It takes self-parenting and help of professionals to learn how to handle life and people in our lives in a healthy way.

With our genes we are destined to some reactions to that unhealthy parenting, and some defences and personality traits develop. It is never that clear what is NPD trait, and what are traits of other disorders, so the whole self-work should be focused on specific situations, and not generalizations that we so often see here. For example, I have also been diagnosed with OCPD, and somehow I was thinking that some kind of rigidity and over-responsibility is part of NPD, but ignored OCPD part of my personality.

I don't think that you should insist on the diagnosis, but let psychiatrists help you and work on things that border you. It seems that guilt is your big issue, for example.

Oh there are so many people to answer to, I don't know where to begin:

@lopsided:
Thank you for taking the time to write this twice. I used to lose messages all the time when I first started writing in this forums, and would usually give up when that happened. I suggest copying your message before you click on preview/submit.
I can definitely relate to what you describe. Especially the gossiping/constant whining/someone has wronged me part. I'm a master at playing the victim, and can be quite aggressive too. To be honest I see this as my real self, not the "pleasant/charming/nice" persona I present to strangers. I wish I could believe my True Nature is good but when I really think about my motives, they're pretty much ALWAYS self-centered and uncaring. The real me is what I'm like in privacy: cold, distant, spoiled, selfish and lazy.
It's funny that you identify as "overt" because most self-diagnosed people on the forum seem to identify as covert. I'm not sure I believe in such a distinction too much anymore. I'm actually starting to think that most of us here hate Vaknin because we don't want to admit he's right on the money about Narcissism. (after re-reading the last sentences, I realize it might sound like I'm criticizing/making fun of you, but it really wasn't meant that way. I was included in the "us")

@narceez:
My brother also looked pretty angry on photos as a baby/toddler, while my other brother (who doesn't have a PD) seems pretty normal. I think I started looking happier on photos around age 3/4 because by that time I knew photo meant I got to be the center of attention.
Apparently studies on psychopathy suggest there is a strong genetic component, that all is not to be blamed on parents or society. I'm not entirely sure my father was a narcissist as I seem to have very poor judgment of these things, but I do believe his mother was.

I identify with your description of you father. I'm a failed artist who never takes her responsibilities and is too lazy to work. I have trouble staying in one place for very long. I imagine having a father like that could screw anyone up. "Good thing" I became self-aware before I ever got a chance to have kids.

@realityhere:
I know you meant well, but if anything your description of your sister makes me feel even more depressed. I'm terrified that I will end up like her (my grandmother also did) because in all honesty self-awareness has not changed my behavior one bit. Thank you for your encouragements, though.

@Violet: I wrote all this during a break, I will try to come back again later to answer your part of the message (either in this thread or by PM) Sorry about that!

That was a typo, i meant covert.


This is probably off topic but is there a list here on the forum with specific techniques or ways to get better? I'm interested to hear from people who have managed to improve what helped them, is it reading this or that or keeping a journal of some sort?

smoke and mirrors
u need 2 improve
the lie
lead people to an idea
that is false about u
tehe
become the npd 2.0