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A read that helped you gain awareness

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A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby georgessa » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:39 am

I see that several persons here have come to realize they might have NPD on their own, through reading and researching, so I'd really like to know if there has been a book in particular that was crucial for you, something you would suggest to somebody who's trying to figure out. What would that be?
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby Ember » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:53 pm

I identified as a narcissist before I read any books about it. Significant personal experiences, curiosity about my inability to function and perusing the Internet were my impetus. But I did read many informative books after this, which helped me to understand myself in even greater detail.

I find that much of the progress in the treatment of Cluster B disorders has occurred in psychodynamic psychology rather than cognitive or behavioral psychology, with a few exceptions such as Dialectical Behavior Therapy; and of course there are hybrid approaches like Schema Therapy. Unfortunately, many disregard psychodynamic psychotherapy because it is rooted in Freudian psychoanalysis, which was in many ways proto- or pseudo-scientific, and is in many ways incompatible with scientific approaches to the study of mental processes because of its origin in Continental philosophy. Nonetheless, modern psychodynamic professionals have sought to base the contemporary field in evidence, and there has been much success in this regard. One particularly interesting development is the field of neuropsychoanalysis, dedicated to finding neural correlates for some of the concepts proposed within psychoanalysis.

Now, as for books, in keeping with this line of evidence-based inquiry, I recommend Dr. N. Gregory Hamilton's Self and Others: Object Relations Theory in Practice to orient oneself in the psychodynamic literature. This book includes only one chapter on narcissistic personality disorder itself, but is a great introduction and will also introduce you to Kohut's self psychology, which as I have said elsewhere, frames all human development, healthy and pathological, in narcissistic terms. No doubt understanding this would be very useful in any endeavor to understand the literature on this disorder more fully. It also provides a more detailed explanation of Margaret Mahler's studies on her separation-individuation theory than ever I have seen, which provide some of the most reliable evidence as to the veracity of object relations theory and its corollaries. If you want to learn more about psychodynamic psychology after this, I recommend the works of Dr. Glen O. Gabbard. To my knowledge, Hamilton and Gabbard were colleagues at the Menninger Foundation. Gabbard takes this insistence upon evidence even further by emphasizing the interdependence of psychological and biological approaches to the study of the mind. I recommend Long-term Psychodynamic Psychotherapy: A Basic Text, Psychodynamic Psychiatry in Clinical Practice and Management of Countertransference With Borderline Patients. As an example of the sorts of things you may read, within Long-term Psychodynamic Psychotherapy, he draws comparisons between the psychodynamic concepts of conscious and unconscious mind and the neurological concepts of implicit and explicit memory. I found Psychodynamic Psychiatry useful as an elaboration of the concepts outlined in Self and Others, as it is intended for graduate students, medical students and psychiatric residents; it is a very general book. Management of Countertransference misleads one in its title I would say, as I consider it a great text on the concept of transference in general, not only on the emotional reactions of therapists to their borderline patients. I find it helped me better understand the behavior of all pathological individuals.

It's ironic; the physicists condemn the psychologists for their lack of empiricism, the behavioral and cognitive psychologists condemn the psychodynamic psychologists for their lack of empiricism, and yet the neuroscientists and neurologists are not so averse to psychodynamic concepts because Freud himself was a neurologist, and where the brain was in many ways a black box in his time, noninvasive imaging techniques provide a brand of empirical inquiry that never was available in the past. The conflict of empirical science and directly inobservable mind may yet be resolved by the study of the brain.
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby georgessa » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:34 pm

Thank you very much, Ember, for this long and exhaustive reply. I have no familiarity with psychodynamic psychotherapy and object relations theory, but I explored Self and Others a bit and I see why it can greatly help frame the disorder.
I also want to thank you for the video link you posted yesterday. I really liked hearing an explanation of what the real self is, since it's much more common to hear about the false self, while I guess a pwNPD mostly needs to figure out what he/she is missing.
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby Ember » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:30 pm

Certainly, georgessa.

Any step toward understanding the literature on psychodynamic psychology and psychotherapy is a step toward understanding the literature on narcissism, I would argue, as this is where much of the research on pathological narcissism has been conducted. If you continue after this, and as you would undoubtedly learn reading Self and Others, the most prolific authors on narcissism within psychodynamic psychology are Otto Kernberg and Heinz Kohut, and they are also the source of the primary controversies on narcissism within the field.

I cannot in good faith recommend what I have not read, but the book discussed in that video, Search For the Real Self, may be exactly the sort of thing you're looking for, come to think of it. It focuses on narcissistic and borderline pathology, and from what I have read, is something of a hybrid between an academic textbook and a popular psychology book. In the case that he does use technical jargon, I would suggest reading Self and Others first.

Also, after I wrote my first post, I realized that there is a pinned topic on this board that leads to another topic with a list of books on narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder. I skimmed the contents briefly, and found that many of them address narcissism in general rather than the pathological variety, which I would expect you to find of less interest, and that the list's author seems to have a particular affinity for Eastern culture. Nonetheless, you may find it useful.

It's unfortunate that you have not received more input. I suspect there may be a fear of ridicule among those who have self-diagnosed. Hopefully this information will suffice.
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby georgessa » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:40 pm

The pinned post on books about narcissism is what drew me to this forum in the first place :)
In this specific case I was curious to know about books that can help an unaware narcissist to become self-aware. I am dealing with an ex partner that I believe has NPD and I'm trying to explain him that that's how I see him, and therefore my interactions with him are now based on this assumption.
It turns out (we spoke today) he has already been suggested the idea in the past and I'm sure he's done some research, though I don't know to what extent (this was the first time he opened up on the subject).
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby Ember » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:50 pm

I see.

This makes me consider Search For the Real Self an even better choice. Only after I was convinced was I sufficiently motivated to delve into the scientific literature. This book seems to frame the pathology within the context of relationships more than many others, as this is what draws so many to the subject in the first place. I imagine that if he'll read any book whatsoever, and that if any book will give him insight into the nature of his difficulties, it will be this one.

Would you consider him an introspective man?
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby georgessa » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:31 pm

I will certainly read one or the other, since I'm interested in borderline traits (I think I was somewhat inclined to borderline symptoms in the shittiest periods of my life, when I was in my teens and twenties).
Self and Others has been translated into my language while Search For the Real Self hasn't, which could make a difference for my friend since he prefers reading translations.
But I'm certainly not going to suggest or push anything, in case I'll just drop a title and a comment into the conversation.

Would I consider him an introspective man... Yes, he himself gave me valuable insights about his patterns at the beginning of our acquaintance, I think he has a hard time seeing the logic behind them. If he is a N, he is the hypervigilant type and I think the article I posted yesterday, which you read, depicts an accurate sketch of that personality type. He promotes a pacific and generous image of himself, so the hardest part consists in making him see how his behaviour is often passive-aggressive and controlling while seemingly ok. Note that he is a cultivated, intellectual person (a successful novelist) with a decent knowledge of psychology, and yet completely oblivious of some basic notions such as that of "passive aggressiveness"... Sounds like selective ignorance to me.
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby Ember » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:46 pm

That is good. I would argue that the will to introspect honestly is the greatest determinant in the success of treatment. Of course, only time will tell if his introspective nature will remain superficial.

You seem to have considered this, since you don't seem to intend to give him any explicit suggestions, but I nonetheless feel inclined to say, in the case that your actions may be driven, consciously or unconsciously, by a sort of rescue fantasy, I would remind you to manage your own expectations. There are always those whom cannot be helped.

I would have had no idea that English is not your native language! Certainly you've made what I would consider mistakes, but none that a native would not. May I ask what is your mother tongue?
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby georgessa » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:28 pm

Ember wrote:You seem to have considered this, since you don't seem to intend to give him any explicit suggestions, but I nonetheless feel inclined to say, in the case that your actions may be driven, consciously or unconsciously, by a sort of rescue fantasy, I would remind you to manage your own expectations. There are always those whom cannot be helped.


My stance is that a) he doesn't need to change (he is extremely charming and will never be short of admirers and adoring fans), and b) this disorder can't be solved.
Honestly, when I learnt about NPD (one month ago) and saw how perfectly he matches the criteria, I freaked out. I felt scared. We meet often because he works in my neighbourhood and we always go to the same café, and by that time he was suggesting we could be intimate again. He still likes me overall and I guess in his eyes I'm always a potential "source of supply", so the research I'm doing serves both the purpose of understanding why I felt (and somehow still feel) attracted to him and the purpose of setting firm boundaries.
He does work on himself, he's into yoga (as a teacher) and meditation, but it seems to me that he is only willing to do the amount of work that will make him appear spiritually elevated to the eyes of his audience. Spiritual growth is a favourite subject of conversation when he wants to impress me, yet he's never entered therapy and I think this says a lot.
Weren't I constantly stumbling into him by chance I would'n t be so interested in dealing with narcissism, but the idea of finding myself "hoovered" back in an intimate relationship with him really makes me anxious, so I'm trying to keep myself at a safe distance.

I'm from Italy, and I'll never be as fluent in English as I am in Italian. I translate books from English. I'd really need an OC English native friend to correct all my mistakes! :)

p.s. : today I sent him the link to that article anyway.
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Re: A read that helped you gain awareness

Postby Ember » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:13 pm

I suppose that whether or not he needs to change depends upon whether or not he is satisfied with his life. Some are so displeased by the pervasive feelings of emptiness and consistent lack of satisfaction with one's accomplishments that they seek treatment. Some consider what others call a disorder to be their greatest strength. Personally, I am on the fence on the matter of whether or not to seek treatment one day.

I must ask, if you're convinced that he neither requires nor is capable of change, why do you want him to be self-aware? Do you seek a superficial relationship with him, but only on honest terms?

Remarkably, you have taught me a new expression. I have never heard "hoovered." English is truly infinite in its variety.

You and Violet tempt me so! To improve my Spanish, I have been exchanging e-mails for some months with a neuroscientist friend of mine who lives in Spain; I have gotten to the point that I make very few mistakes. I have long sought to expand into other Romance languages. I wanted to ask Violet if she would help me learn French, but thought it would be too forward, as you never know the risks associated with getting to know the sorts of people that you might encounter on forums such as this. And now I encounter an Italian! Let it be known that if you ever seek to improve your English with a person with a sharp eye for detail, or would be so kind as to help me learn Italian, I would be much obliged to correspond with you.

Should you read this, I mean you as well, Violet, in the case of French!
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