Relationships with narcs: How does it happen?

Yorkshirelass, as I said in my earlier post, there is little to be gained for anyone from arguing the case for or against being born with a disorder. Some agree with you and some don't but at the moment it's all your posts seem to consist of in here, I think you've made your point enough.

Yorkshirelass wrote:

Pink1

Sam is the poster child for NPD. How are you born a narcissist?

Sam has no empathy so he is a narcissist by default. But Sam is a psychopath.

Psychopaths... we usually only know them from Hollywood movies. We never expect them to enter our real life. But, the psychopath is closer than you think. Experts believe their number to be as high as one in a hundred. Most of them function incognito in high-powered professions...all the way to the very top.

But... it takes one to truly know one. In this intriguing documentary, Sam Vaknin, a self-proclaimed psychopath

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/
How are you born a narcissist?
People are all unique all different, born with all sorts of personalities, extrovert, introvert, empathic, unempathetic. Their environment will make or break.
I believe a pathological narcissist is born with (possibly) a low functioning Amygdala they are born without the capacity for empathy and with a low conscience.

Amygdala:
The amygdala is an almond shaped mass of nuclei located deep within the temporal lobe of the brain. It is a limbic system structure that is involved in many of our emotions and motivations, particularly those that are related to survival. The amygdala is involved in the processing of emotions such as fear, anger and pleasure. The amygdala is also responsible for determining what memories are stored and where the memories are stored in the brain.
http://biology.about.com/od/anatomy/p/Amygdala.htm

They are born like it just as psychopaths are born like it;
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127888976
Some NPDs will be traited, and have learnt their N behaviour from NPD parents, they can be helped with therapy.
A person born a psychopath or narcissistic will not be helped by therapy, they do not have the capacity to change they are born that way. Wired differently.

I am trying to find out why is this post irritating me so much.

I don't even feel like arguing with you about your opinion, because by now I realized that there is not possible to argue with you with arguments. You don't go from arguments to the conclusion, but you rather have your conclusion and than find arguments to prove it.

However, why is this frustrating me so much?

I think it comes from the childhood and similar situation with my parents. There was nothing that I could say that would change the conclusion. I was wrong and bad by default. There was no achievement that would gain their respect and love. I was given a role on my birth, and no chance to prove that I am much more than that.

But also, coming to this forum to share my insights with pears and gain better understanding, I expected the same from others. I have never seen any insight from you; all your posts are only expressing your view about NPD and your own victimhood. Even if you offer support to an N victim, you are assuming that victim is totally angelic and the N, diagnosed by the victim, is doing/ thinking that and that in the form of 'they' (situation doesn't mater, N does that and that).

And this post is saying that 'they' are born that way, and can do nothing about that. Well, according to you, some could possibly 'learn'- so what you are saying is there is no real improvement.
'Wired differently' - definite conclusion. Like some kind of freaks. Like all that we try here is just senseless because the real improvement is not possible.

I can not complain, because I know that I am on a public forum and everyone has right to express their opinion. But I need to say that don't see any peer support from you; nor do I see any change. You are persistent in your black and white vision of the world, and in this thread you are persistent with 'wired differently', even though you got different opinions.

Which pi///es me immensely.

But I would like to ensure you that it is not personal; this is displaced anger, that I am putting to my parents; because this is how I was treated in my childhood and this is how I ended up with NPD.

Because I was never given a chance in my own family to be myself and to be appreciated for who I am an what I have to say; so I ended up thinking that I am different; and that my 'different' meant that something was wrong with me. Otherwise, I would have had to conclude that something was wrong with them and that they don't love me, and that would have been too painful.

Posts like this make me wonder why I am on this forum.
Because I want and need to share thoughts and insights; but I feel violated and missused with posts like this. Yes, I know, everyone has right to their opinion, and not having any empathy while claiming empathy (which is exactly how I perceive you) is not the pre-request to post on this forum.

So, do I really want to share my honest insights having posters like you?

Or how I get to the point that you don't irritate me? Because I understand where you are coming from, but it doesn't help.

Amygdala:
The amygdala is an almond shaped mass of nuclei located deep within the temporal lobe of the brain. It is a limbic system structure that is involved in many of our emotions and motivations, particularly those that are related to survival. The amygdala is involved in the processing of emotions such as fear, anger and pleasure. The amygdala is also responsible for determining what memories are stored and where the memories are stored in the brain.
http://biology.about.com/od/anatomy/p/Amygdala.htm

If that's the case, that the amygdala has nothing to do with NPD. A pwNPD does not experience diminished fear or anger relative to the general population. Nor does a pwNPD underestimate threats to his survival. If anything, it's completely the other way about. If NPD is about anything, it's fear. Narcissists aren't just Psychopaths who don't like blood or something.

I would argue that a pwNPD controls and represses his emotions to the extent that you aren't going to see outward expressions of anger, pleasure, excitement, etc, the way you would with others. And there may genuinely be some emotional limitations. There was a study that showed that pwNPD had less grey matter in their brain, similar to Psychopaths, and that is what causes lack of empathy. But pwNPD very strongly feel fear, which is why they need control so desperately and universally.

VirginiaEsquire wrote:I would argue that a pwNPD controls and represses his emotions to the extent that you aren't going to see outward expressions of anger, pleasure, excitement, etc, the way you would with others. And there may genuinely be some emotional limitations.

I agree about that - I have controlled my emotions my whole life to the point of dissociation. But they have been there. Once I got in touch with my feelings, and especially anger - I can tell you, a loot of anger. A lot of shame. A lot of sadness and fear.
These are basic emotions that have been suppressed for the self-preservation.
Emotional limitation, I believe, comes from suppressing and controlling these emotions - there was not the opportunity to develop.

VirginiaEsquire wrote:
There was a study that showed that pwNPD had less grey matter in their brain, similar to Psychopaths, and that is what causes lack of empathy. But pwNPD very strongly feel fear, which is why they need control so desperately and universally.

There also was a study that showed that mindfulness increases this same gray matter. And many more studies that prove how some activities, such as playing an instrument, affect our brain.

Also, there is the whole program that aims developing empathy for kids in school - why would they do that if it has been 'wired'.

Hasn't it been concluded that narcissism IS treatable? That it can be diminished, maybe even cured? The big barrier seems to be proactivity. That someone with NPD just needs to get his/her foot in the psychologists office and be persistent about it? I think Sam Vaknin has such a pessimistic opinion about it because it's been PROVEN to him that he has a brain chemical/structure irregularity and he's also been psychologically evaluated to be a psychopath.

Well thats certainly the case with me and yes, disordered person does have to really put the work in, although cure is by no means an appropriate word.

^^^Good call. Should've put the word 'cure' in quotation marks as this is how I've read others refer to it when they write about progress made with NPD treatment. I truly believe that the answer is consistent therapy, but I can see how some of the reported characteristics of NPD would make that difficult.

Oh sure, very much so. Thats why it only truly yields any good results if you've reached enough of a low point or rock bottom and even then it takes a very patient and understanding therapist to help break through a lot of those defenses.

narcbolan wrote:Oh sure, very much so. Thats why it only truly yields any good results if you've reached enough of a low point or rock bottom and even then it takes a very patient and understanding therapist to help break through a lot of those defenses.

Yes, and I came to the core; i came to this deeply seeded feeling that I am crazy, not normal, laughable, something that was ingrained in me in my early childhood, and that there is nothing that i can do about that. That is why Ys post triggered me so much. Because that goes together with the shame, not only deep shame of who I am but the shame that I am laughable for even trying to do something about that. This shame was there, hidden all my life; this is the shame of a 5 year's old who was laughed at.

And while at the same time rationally I know my values, one of them being persistent and courageous enough to go through all this pain and introspection, this feeling is still there. In fact, I have to remind myself of my values, just so that this feeling doesn't take over.

I am crying over myself while writing this, because I don't even know if this feeling will stay with me by the end of my life or what to do about it. Recognizing it makes me feel angry, desperate and helpless. This is so crippling. I have been crippled all my life and I didn't even know that.

May I ask you:
Did you have any similar experience? Did you come to that level? Is that feeling going to stay with me for the rest of my life like some kind of damage that I will always have to be aware of? How this child work helped you in dealing with these things? Is it something that you want to uncover on a forum?

Hi VioletAasA,

No I don't mind talking about it, after all thats really what this place is for.

First of all in Yorkshirelass's defence, I only know a bit of her story, but I was angry enough at my mother for my childhood which was bad enough but I think I can safely say that hers was more extreme than mine, so even though I think continually making those posts is a waste of time and contributes nothing to the forum, I can feel why she's doing it. (Sorry Y-lass if I seem like I'm talking about you instead of to you!).

I think part of moving through the pain is that holding on to your righteous anger feels vital to survival, it can take a lifetime to get to a point where letting go of it no longer feels like you're condoning they're behaviour, and my impression is that's what she is really saying underneath. I think she has a right to express and vent here and she will move through it at her pace.

However, for those of us who are triggered by that and other posts by nons, my feeling is that taking a defensive stance and moaning about percieved n-bashing is not seeing the wood for the trees. This type of input from nons is in fact an opportunity for N's for learning and growing, and I would say that your reaction and the way you have proccessed it is a great example of what I mean. Instead of mindlessly retaliating, you've observed how it's made you feel and put some thought into talking about it on here and this is where the real meaningful dialogue between the two sides can start.

In answer to your question, it is possible that the feeling you're talking about will always be there in some form, but what could change is how you proccess it and relate to it. It sounds corny but time is a big factor in that, plus the shame has to be put where it belongs - back on the parent. Shame on them for making a child feel that way. Shame on them for being ignorant of the fact that a child takes things like that on and personalises it, as kids we believe and trust adults, so if they give us the message that we're worthless, we absolutely believe that about ourselves and take it with us into adulthood.

That's one part of how I moved through it. The short version of explaining how inner child work helped me is that it reconnected me with the parts of my self that had been shut down, we automatically do this as kids to protect ourselves and its a good psychic defence and shows how resilient children can be, but the downside is that we lose our sense of self and take on our abusive caregivers view of us instead. Inner child work can help us claim some of it back for ourselves.