Our partner

HPD with incest

Histrionic Personality Disorder message board, open discussion, and online support group.

Moderators: masquerade, xdude, orion13213

Forum rules
Attention Please. You are entering the Histrionic Personality Disorder forum. Please read this carefully.

Given the unique propensities of those who are faced with the issues of HPD, topics at times may be uncomfortable for non HP readers. Discussions related to HPD behavior are permitted here, within the context of deeper understanding of the commonalties shared by members. Indulging or encouraging these urges is not what this forum is intended for.

Conversations here can be triggering for those who have suffered abuse from HPDs. .
Non HPD users are welcome to post here, But their questions Must have a respectful tone.
If you are a NON and have issues with an past relationship with an HPD person, it is suggested that you Post in a Relationship forum. Here is a link to that forum: relationship/

For those who have no respect for either this illness or for those who are living with it, please do not enter this forum. Discrimination of Personality Disorders is not tolerated on this site.

Moderators are present here to ensure that members treat each other with dignity and respect. If topics become overly graphic or drift from having a healthy perspective, moderators will intervene.
Please feel free to contact a moderator if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards,
The Team

Re: HPD with incest

Postby LovelyQueen » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:27 am

Antipas wrote:Op don't you think that the HPD can be part of the problems of the incest they experience? They have seductive behavior and many brothers of HPD's have later reported how their sisters pulled a lot of seductive maneuvers while they were growing up. This ranges from playing games of house to other games where the sister even was touchy feely.




OMG this touched on deep issues. I am embarrassed to go into too much detail but Antipas you are right it does work both ways and if things don't go our way we will make people only understand it one way. Bear in thought that brother and sister encounters do not need to have an hpd involved. As an hpd I feel i owe it to you to say hpd with incest does not always mean the hpd is the victim. From the way you described your story I can say I am very sorry for what happened. I was thinking like only one who had been through it could have described it like you did.
LovelyQueen
Consumer 0
Consumer 0
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:28 am
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)


ADVERTISEMENT

Re: HPD with incest

Postby AliceWonders » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:58 pm

wisdom wrote:I have great respect for guys like RealityCheque who attack the problem from the brain itself. The physical brain is made up of lots of regions, with lots of interconnection. If you start with the coordinates of some physical spot in the brain they can tell you what happens if that area is damaged physically. With fMRI you also get very good, very specific physical information of what is activated. Its like taking a computer chip apart, putting it under the microscope, and finally getting down to what the circuits do. However we have to remember there is still human development, including how the brain physically develops over childhood, and how its programmed, and reprogrammed chemically and physically over time.

Yes, most certainly. :D

Wisdom wrote:This is a very tricky area! Incest abuse, including psychological incest is a very odd blend


You're right, this is a very tricky area and a tender subject for some as well.
I find that I'm good at keeping myself detatched from what happened as long as I don't have to remember details or try to 'open the box' to the abuse itself. I just want you to know that I'm OK talking about this, and if it gets to be too much, I have learned since the last time we were opening my boxes how to pull back, and ultimately keep myself safe.

Wisdom wrote:Love & Caring – The perpetrator is very close to the to the victim. They are also together "inside the castle". There is generally long term close proximity. In most cases there is also substantial intimacy between the pair on some legitimate level.
Yes, this is so true in my case. Aside from what happened, he was an ideal brother. I remember that he was fun to play with. I looked up to him, idealized him, pretty much worshiped him as most little sisters do with their older brothers as the protectors. He treated me well. My mother said there was never any jealousy or crulety between us- some bickering, but nothing outside of the 'norm' he loved me in all aspects; which is why when everyone finally found out what happened they were utterly shocked, and I think mom and dad felt violated by him as well...
We took care of each other. After he would be punished I would sneak into his room and try and sooth him. That time when I bit my dads leg, I was only thinking of my brother and wanting to make it stop because I loved and cared for him so much. We were tightly bonded by both our love and the familial abuse.

Wisdom wrote:Co-Dependency – This in not obvious until you look deeply. The perpetrator and victim are oddly co-dependent. Its easy to spot that the child must have support, safety and love. What’s not immediately obvious is the perpetrator is likewise deeply dependent and perhaps can even be considered addicted to what that child supplies. What the perpetrator seeks is not readily available elsewhere.

This is also so true. I needed his love and support. The way my father was to me in emotional my abuse and my brothers physical abuse, placed a great barrier between us in my forming a proper bond to my dad. I see that now after looking into my life for the past year... Where the love, nurturing and support of a father should have been- I had placed my older brother instead because he was all those things, and my dad wasn't. My father wasn't 'all bad' we did have some good times and I do have some fond memories of him from my childhood; but they are few and far between, and greatly over shadowed by the negatives- my brother though (to me) was 'all good' and filled the void of what I didn't have with my father.
My brother was also dependant on my love and support because it was unconditional.

Surrounding the abuse, where you said "it's not readily available" that's also true and I think what sparked it the first time it happened.
As far as I know, there had never been anything inapropriate up until that time. No touches, looks, indications or tests of any kind. The first night it happened we were watching a movie together, "The Howlling" (a movie about wearwolves), it was of course inapropriate for me at my age as it was very graphic and sexual; but my brother being the cool older brother he was, allowed me to stay up and watch it with him.
At one point during the movie, when the humans were changing into their wolf form, it became very sexual. I remember a lot of nudity and a back ground of writhing bodies on a bunch of rocks in the back ground... That's when he told me to go to bed.
I don't know how long it was after he sent me upstairs that he came; but all of a sudden he was there.
Looking back on things I'm pretty sure that he was just getting arroused from watching the movie, and then (Because no one was there to staisfy his sexual arousal) he for some reason thought it was OK to use me for that purpose.
That was the first time. After that, just babysitting me and having me in bed was enough to trigger him to come in. I don't remember anything about what happened before the following ocassions he came in; but I believe (and feel) that they were 'normal' days/evenings up until that point were he came into my room.
So yes, he had become addicted to what I 'provided' to him in a way because there was nothing substancial to trigger the following times, except the fact that we were alone and I was in bed.

I'm not sure, but I think (and I suppose I could be right) that the scene from that movie being what sparked this happenning, and the fact that it was so animalistic right before my first 'sexual experience' could account for at least part of my paraphillic compulsions. It was violent, it was animal, it was carnal, it was domineering, it was a group thing, it was outside... In short it was an animalistic, orgy of pure lust and that's very much what my sexuality is like as an adult.
I could go further in depth here into how that ties in, but I'll leave it there and just say that my sexuality is very carnal, and when I'm aroused I take on the role of a huntress/preditor in nature and demenor... Interesting...

Wisdom wrote:Electric Charge! - The actual violation of boundaries takes place in a very emotionally charged environment - either under strong incestuous/inappropriate romantic style love bonding and -or- under possibly under horrendous physical pain and abuse - in either case, the strength of the emotional "charge" between the pair is undeniably there.

This I have a hard time accessing; but it was very emotional for me. I was internally panicked, and that whole 'fight or flight' feeling came in to me. I was afraid and I didn't know what to do, where to run- so I ran with my mind and tried to block it out (sensations and all) as best I could.

I can't safely access enough of the memory at this point to see what his response/reactions were. My mind doesn't work like that. In order to remember something I have to open it so completely it takes me back there in mind, feeling, and panic- it's like I'm reliving the event all over again.

But I would imagine that like any sexual offender he would have been experiencing a combination of arousal, fear, perversion, taboo, and even a more hightened sexual experience purely because what he was doing was so 'wrong' and that (in the mind of a deviant) makes it feel 'so good'- even better than just sex itself. Sex times 10, and I only understand this because that's how I feel when I do something 'so wrong' that just feels 'so good' simply because it's so very, very wrong.

Wisdome wrote:Electric Discharge! – one or both of the pair end up discharging intense orgasms. It’s often said that a young child simply can’t process that much pleasure appropriately, it’s just too much. The adult also gets the huge neurochemical hit from it. Otherwise, why take the risk?
I don't remember his discharge, and that would be way too hard for me to do; but I remember mine. It wasn't an orgasm, but the reliefe of it being 'OVER' was a great emotional discharge in and of itself.

Having being sexually assulted a number of times, I can honestly say that when it's over there is always that kind of tension release as you come back into yourself and realize you're safe.
I don't believe I ever orgasmed while being raped- I certainly don't remember that ever happening, even as I got older. But the releiving of the stress and tension when it's done is a great emotional expulsion and feels very good indeed.

Perhaps this could be why I use sex to deal with stress, tension, rage, anger, and other infused emotions?
Maybe because I know that when it's over I'll feel good, relaxed, relieved and at peace inside myself?
Hard to say; but it's an interesting observation...

Wisdom wrote:Abuse - The adult crossed the line, lacked sufficient awareness, education, or self constraint . They went ahead and violated the emotional and/or physical defenses of the child
Trauma Bonds - the above “cocktail” leaves to very enduring trauma bonds

Trauma Bonds- I had to look this up and see what the term specifically entails (I'm a geek like that :lol: ) and I found this: http://www.kyros.org/PDF's/Trauma%20Bonds.pdf as a short/simple explanation and I can answer these things accordingly:
TRAUMA BONDS STRENGTHEN WHEN . . .
1. trauma cycles are repeated
yes
2. the victim believes in his or her uniqueness I'm not sure if thats' true in this case or not
3. the victim mistakes intensity for intimacy again, I'm not sure
4. the trauma endures over time yes
5. there are increasing amounts of fear yes
6. the fear-induced neurochemical reactions occur earlier in life and affect the organic development of the brain I would think yes, the trauma of fathers beating him induced a great fear in me at a very young age, and also what supposedly happened when I was 5, would havebeen fearful as well...
7. the trauma is preceded by earlier victimization again, yes- violence and possible previous sexual abuse could have been factor here
8. the victim is surrounded by reactivity and extreme responses the only reactivity i remember was me running inside my mind, so I'm not sure if that would classify here as an extreme response or not...
9. the betrayal of power relationships is greater yes, he was my older brother and my idol- he had a power of me emotionally and with his stature of being the older sibling as well.
10. the betrayal of trusted relationships is greater yes, I trusted him absolutely and utterly!


One of the things I must say is that what my brother did to me wasn't brutal in action; but what he did was so traumatic (I think) because of who he was and what he had become to me:
- a replacement for an insufficient father
- unconditional love, acceptance, and protection
- the previous traumas which tied us to each other
- and because he had been encarserated so many times, and for such long periods of time between our younger years (growing up together full time), and the time which this actually happened, I think the years I spent longing for him, missing him, wishing for him to return and be in my life (because he was gone so much) had taken all the above factors and strengthened them all the more. I think the intensity in which I loved him and needed him, pined for him and prayed for him to come home to me, made these fuses of overformed affection all the deeper inside me.
I can't even begin to explain the way I wanted him home; but that was my greatest wish for many years, even after the assults...

Wisdom wrote:In terms of why BPDers evolve placid or active, I don't really have an cue. Why one victim chooses to "suck it up" and then later overflows with horrible emotional outbursts, while another chooses to switch roles and become the aggressor, despite hating their, seems almost a coin toss. The more I look at it however the more I'm convinced during early childhood a trauma bond forms - that bond is between perpetrator and victim and what sticks in the mind of the victim is very much what happened to them, and the electric emotions surrounding that. What sticks in there is clearly a footprint left behind from the perpetrator’s mindset.


I think you could be right here. Sex is a HUGE issue for me. I'm abnormally hyper sexual, and my sexuality is greatly entangled into many others areas, aside from sex.
A lot of people hate the fact that i'm so sexual; but there's reasons for that, and I truly think this is the reason for that.
Granted there are many other factors that came to my developing a personality disorder; but what happened here with my brother was undoubtedly one of the most deeply impacting circumstances in my life! Anything done before that time, was amplified by this. Every thing that happened since that time, was fused with the trauma of this.
That foot print was large, like a yetti wearing army boots- it stamped in my heart and my psyche with the greatest pressure on earth and forever changed me as a person.

Wisdom wrote:Of course the child has only some DNA from their incest perpetrator. Some inborn traits and predispositions will be different. From the abuse point(s) forward there are unique life experiences and the resulting personality forms on top of all that. To get rid of the abuse footprint I'm convinced you need to know a great deal about the mindset of the perpetrator, and pretty much exactly how they were deviant. At that point teasing the deviance out is possible, but still tricky and protracted.

My brother and I share no genetics, as we're both adopted from different families; but aside from DNA- we were very deeply bonded in our love and need for one and other.

In regards to knowing as much as possible about the mindset of the perpitrator, would that entail studying his personality structure and his psychology to better understand how a typical construct of his deficite functions and is formed? Knowing him personally and trying to understand him? Or observing my likeness to him, and better understanding where 'he' lies within myself?
The thing about my brother is that I don't know much about him as a person. We spent so little time together... All of the consistant/longer time we had together I was just so young that I have only fleeting memories and general feeling of loving him in that place/time. So essentially I really don't know him much at all.


Wisdom wrote:I'm finding when youth (and adults) experience strong, electric emotions they really stick. There is unquestioningly tons of activation around sex, around physical abuse, around fear, etc. Years later, from that early experience we can ask what causes some real heart pounding activation again that seems to have such a clear effect on actual behavior? Well let’s see, the fear of a rival taking my mate away, the thrill of exposing myself, and the ultimate fear I can create for myself - reenacting my childhood abuse through my partner.

Strong electric emotions are the only ones I ever cling to, and they pretty much pattern themselves throughout the course of my life.
Intense highs consisting of love relationships, feirce sexual experiences, impulsive and reclessness behaviours, high impact, high adrenalin, highly stimulating activities are all over my life in varried ways.
Extreme emotional struggles such as abuses including sexual abuses, more 'brutal' rapes, physical abuses/assualts, emotional abuses/tourment, suicidal compulsions, drug abuse and a great many other negative things in my life are always closely on the heels of any previous 'high' and just as intense, if not moreso...
It almost seems as if these are the only things I remember. Either really 'good'/fun/exciting times, or the really 'bad'/traumatic/horrendous times- the in between times/'normal' times are all missing in my life... Just something I've noticed while trying to fill the gaps in my missing memories and stuff.

Maybe that's why we seek such thrills. Not only because they are high impact in the moment, but they last longer in our memories as well...


and the ultimate fear I can create for myself - reenacting my childhood abuse through my partner.
This speaks to me in a few ways:

On one hand I love to be the abuser. I get excited at others emotional tourment and destruction. I get sexually aroused in my rages and violence towards them. I feel powerful and in control when I have someone crumblling and crying at my feet. I get off on having that power over them, and having their own spirit within my clutches- it's within my ability to pulverise them or to show mercy, and souly at my discretion and for my own benefit. Destruction and chaos is highly stimulating for me in this way. I feel indestructable and in total control. The more I break someone the more I own them from the inside out. The weaker they become and the more I can affect them, seep into them and destroy them. That pleases me very much. It's a great feeling to have so much power over someones life. In that way I'm very much the aggressor, the abuser and the power within the exchange.

On the other hand though I will also allow myself to be abused. Only by someone I love intimately, and if I don't love someone and they abuse me- I go on the defensive and fly off the handle. Granted I will do the same thing to someone I love; if I find their abuse to be too much. Things like cheating, neglecting me, angering me, putting me down, challenging me, or making me 'unworthy' in some way, will send me into utter destructive mode and I will usually snap. But I will also take their abuses for a considerable time before this happens becauseI love them and I want them to love me in return.
I will lower myself to them, idolize them and treat them increadably well. I become submissive to them in a way, and even if they cheat on me- I'll fly off the handle and forgive them, always giving them 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chances, etc... That's what I mean when I always say they can do no worng. Even if they do wrong, it never lasts- I always forgive them and welcome them back.
This could possibly be because of the way I was with my brother- wanting him to love me despite the way he hurt me. I'm not sure, but it definitely carries the pattern of love infused with abuse in to my adult years...
Every critism they lay on to me (even indirectly) I take inside me the way I did with my fathers words/actions/attitudes/etc...
No matter what they do/don't do, I always forgive them and forget all about it, loving them completely- until it happens again. Just like with my brother... Chance after chance... I lay myself down at their feet in the hopes that they'll treat me better 'this time' but it never happens- it always gets worse, and I end up hurting them all the more because it hurts me more each time I trust them.
I just want them to love me; but they keep abusing me- just like my brother...
It's almost as if I'm reliving the desperation of keeping the one I love a part of me, close to me, forgiving everything and anything, just to keep them with me.
It's abusive and destructive.
I do it to myself because I always go back to them. In this way, I very much love to be abused.

Degridation and humilation are ememse turn ons for me. Both to inflict these things on others (people who are sexual objects used for my pleasure) and to endure them (from those I am in love with, submit to, want them to be able to control me, etc..). To see or to be used and abused in a sexual way is highly charged for me- just what I like, and my favorite form of sexuality. Violence is definitely sexualized for me, as is rage and aggressions; but degridation and the breaking of the inner spirit is where I get the most excitement and power of all my sexual practices/manipulations/abuses of others. That to me is like a drug. An addiction, and something I constantly crave. To be abused or abuse another to my will is truly the ultimate sexual experience for me, and I'm sure it greatly ties into this whole thing with my brother.

Perversity and taboo. It seems that at times, the more off wall something is- the more I like it. I of course don't want to be too explicit here; but suffid to say that I'm into some wierd things that are not of the 'norm'.
Some of these things I can clearly see as being directly as a result of what happened with my brother specifically. Some of these things I see as stemming from the broken relationship with my father (daddy/daughter roll play is my ideal sexual dynamic with someone I love/place above me), so I do see some of these things tied into my youth very much in deed.
There are some others though that I still wonder about.
Many of them are tied into the degritation factor though.
Either that or they're just so off the wall that I can't help but be excited by them chemically- I'm not sure...
In many ways I think I'm just addicted to the 'rush' these strange things bring because of that whole, "it's so wrong but that makes it feel so right" element. Perhaps, as you sujested, merely a reenactment of my brothers mentality as he was doing what he did???
Not sure...


It's funny, because as I look at these things and examine them, I can see so many places in my life where they have indeed played a massive roll in my actions, choices and menatality.

I wanna thank you Wisdom for helping me to see these things within myself and my life right now.

I'm currently preparing myself for another court case wherein I'm making a case specifically geared towards the results of the trauma I suffered from my brother, so that I can receive assistance through a victim program to help me pay for my therapy costs, etc...

:lol: They also give an 'award' for emotional/psychological suffering and personal loss/damages :lol:
How do you put a price on something that affected you so greatly?
Where do you even begin to describe and detail the amount of recovery for a life lost due to such great inner trauma, suffered as a young child?
How do you make up for the legal 'punishment' he received?
(7 months encarseration for destroying my life and raping my mind- let alone my body :lol: )
That part of the case/appeal/whatever you wanna call it- I'm almost afraid to do.
I'm afraid to see what 'value' they'll place on my trauma and my life. :roll:
Oh well...
Que serra, serra, and I suppose it doesn't matter anyways- right?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
User avatar
AliceWonders
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:10 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby wisdom » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:06 pm

AliceWonders wrote:You're right, this is a very tricky area and a tender subject for some as well. I find that I'm good at keeping myself detached from what happened as long as I don't have to remember details or try to 'open the box' to the abuse itself. I just want you to know that I'm OK talking about this, and if it gets to be too much, I have learned since the last time we were opening my boxes how to pull back, and ultimately keep myself safe.
....
Wisdom wrote:Love & Caring – The perpetrator is very close to the to the victim. They are also together "inside the castle". There is generally long term close proximity. In most cases there is also substantial intimacy between the pair on some legitimate level.

Yes, this is so true in my case. Aside from what happened, he was an ideal brother. I remember that he was fun to play with. I looked up to him, idealized him, pretty much worshiped him as most little sisters do with their older brothers as the protectors. He treated me well. My mother said there was never any jealousy or cruelty between us- some bickering, but nothing outside of the 'norm' he loved me in all aspects; which is why when everyone finally found out what happened they were utterly shocked, and I think mom and dad felt violated by him as well...
We took care of each other. After he would be punished I would sneak into his room and try and sooth him. That time when I bit my dads leg, I was only thinking of my brother and wanting to make it stop because I loved and cared for him so much. We were tightly bonded by both our love and the familial abuse.
....
Wisdom wrote:Co-Dependency – This in not obvious until you look deeply. The perpetrator and victim are oddly co-dependent. Its easy to spot that the child must have support, safety and love. What’s not immediately obvious is the perpetrator is likewise deeply dependent and perhaps can even be considered addicted to what that child supplies. What the perpetrator seeks is not readily available elsewhere.

This is also so true. I needed his love and support. The way my father was to me in emotional my abuse and my brothers physical abuse, placed a great barrier between us in my forming a proper bond to my dad. I see that now after looking into my life for the past year... Where the love, nurturing and support of a father should have been- I had placed my older brother instead because he was all those things, and my dad wasn't. My father wasn't 'all bad' we did have some good times and I do have some fond memories of him from my childhood; but they are few and far between, and greatly over shadowed by the negatives- my brother though (to me) was 'all good' and filled the void of what I didn't have with my father. My brother was also dependent on my love and support because it was unconditional.
...
I'm currently preparing myself for another court case wherein I'm making a case specifically geared towards the results of the trauma I suffered from my brother, so that I can receive assistance through a victim program to help me pay for my therapy costs, etc...

They also give an 'award' for emotional/psychological suffering and personal loss/damages



Alice,
All of the above strikes me as essential to work through in pretty deep depth with your therapist(s). It seems to be involved in much of your prior on-the-edge and acting out behaviors.

This seems to be a good book although I've only read several pages:
Transforming Trauma: A Guide to Understanding and Treating Adult Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse Anna C. Salter

Particularly the first part and

Ch 3. Sadistic Versus Nonsadistic Offenders and Their Effects on Victims

and

Apology and Forgiveness in the Context of adult Male Sex Offenders Who Abuse Children

Hilary Eldridg and Jenny Still

Not suggesting direct contact with the perpetrator as part of the recovery process but perhaps as part of the recovery there could be a deep psych probe / evaluation of your brother, including a detailed accounting of the incidents. That might then be given to YOUR therapists as input as to how you proceed?

Teasing out the trauma bond (with lots of genuine, heartfelt LOVE in there too) no doubt will be tricky. The fact parents were "stunned" also speaks that you may have blamed yourself for a ton of stuff that should not have happened. Part of you may feel responsible and be absorbing his actual guilt? That responsibility/guilt absolutely does not belong to you!

At some point, after you have processed all through the above THOROUGHLY, you may, down the road may want to have a conversation with him. That radical a move however I absolutely leave up to both you and your therapists.
I am not a professional therapist. My postings here are provided for general informational purposes only and are not intended as, nor should it be considered a substitute for, professional medical or psychological advice. See: site Disclaimer and Notes
wisdom
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:35 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby AliceWonders » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:12 pm

Thank you Wisdom,

wisdom wrote:All of the above strikes me as essential to work through in pretty deep depth with your therapist(s). It seems to be involved in much of your prior on-the-edge and acting out behaviors.
This is certainly the plan, right now we are working on getting me to a point of functionality (where I am able to live, enjoy life in some kind of 'normal' way) and making sure that myself and others are safe (I'm not going to take my own life or snap in a violent rage and harm anyone else either) before opening up too much.
I became very aggressive over the summer months. Violence was high in me, and as was sadism and many other deep/dark compulsions. Things were pretty scarey for me and for those around me. Both my X's (Xhubs & Son's Father) thought I would kill them at one (or even a few) point(s) because of the insane rages and injustices which were brewing within me.

Homeopathy and therapy has really helped with this a lot!
My homeopath (Joy) has had me taking Python Regius for about 1&1/2 months, and it's helped tremenously with some of the somatic symptoms and the intensity of my rages. I am now able to become 'mad' without getting viscious- it's a nice thing to have a 'normal' emotional response to things as apposed to outbursts and torments. I definitely do see and FEEL a difference in my emotionality since taking the python :D
Beth (my therapist) helps me with the muck in my mind and sorting through the mess.
I've been working on re programing my thinking through a DBT (type) approach as well.

It's a huge group effort, and a lot of work on all sides; but I'm much more stable than I've been in a LONG TIME & that helps keep me balanced and on track. The tough stuff (like the thing with my brother) is soon coming. Beth assures me all the time that we will work through it all together and she will hold my hand, support through those things as they come out. She knows how affraid I am of facing those things and she's very aware of how much it's going to hurt me, how easily it could be for me to hurt myself and the potential I have to harm others as we open those things up over time.

I have a good strong team of people who are here for me and I'm confident that we'll get through this together :D Terrified; but confident :wink:
Joy is currently adjusting my python dosage, and ordering in some black mamba and cobra to aid me as I go trough the process of therapy with Beth.

It's quite fascinating actually the way the homeopathy is used, and the fact that it's working- is astonishing!
Here's a bit of info if you wanna see some stuff about it (the 3 things I'm taking in particular)
http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2005/healhomeo0105.htm
http://www.hominf.org/remedy/python.htm
http://structuralhomeopathy.blogspot.com/
The main reasons they were used in my script is because of my huge sexual components, my aggressions and the fact that my violence is always focused on the head/face area of the victim, and they also help with dissociative symptoms (cobra) and depression (mamba) as well.
A bit off topic, but interesting :wink:

wisdom wrote:Not suggesting direct contact with the perpetrator as part of the recovery process but perhaps as part of the recovery there could be a deep psych probe / evaluation of your brother, including a detailed accounting of the incidents. That might then be given to YOUR therapists as input as to how you proceed?

That's interesting. I have no idea if he's ever had a psych eval or any kind of therapy. I would imagine not. Perhaps that's something I could talk to Beth about and see if we could apply for through the court proceedings with the CCB claim. I'm not sure if they could order him to do that or not; but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't agree to do it just for my benefit. It would serve him no purpose, and as such I can't see him sitting down with a shrink for nothing...
He still denies that 'it' ever happened though. So getting him to talk about our particular incodents would literally be a 1 in a million shot in frozen hell :lol: He never admitted it- not even when he was found guilty.
I can try, of course, but that could be one piece of the puzzel I may never attain...

wisdom wrote:The fact parents were "stunned" also speaks that you may have blamed yourself for a ton of stuff that should not have happened. Part of you may feel responsible and be absorbing his actual guilt? That responsibility/guilt absolutely does not belong to you!

Yes, this is true in a way...

I don't blame myself for what he did; but I do carry a great burden of how it affected everyone when they found out.
I see now that it was handeled very poorly and I finally understand that part.
I didn't know that before bhecause that was just the way it was, and I didn't know it should have been any different.
But yeah, I wish I hadn't told anyone about it.
I feel stupid for telling anyone, and I feel guilt because I should have carried that burden alone- then no one would have been hurt by it at all. Telling them only added to the pain- mine and then created theirs as well. That's where my guilt lies- not in what happened; but in telling.

wisdom wrote:At some point, after you have processed all through the above THOROUGHLY, you may, down the road may want to have a conversation with him. That radical a move however I absolutely leave up to both you and your therapists.

:lol: I don't want to converse with him :lol: - I want to kill him.
I want to pulverise him, mame him, humilliate him, degrade him, and both beat & rape him brutally, and then some.
But I also want to have him hold me, love me, and be my protecter. I want to be there for him and support him, to love him, and have him in my life.
I hate him and I love him, and sometimes one is stronger than the other. It's very confusing for me, how I feel about him.
I'm not sure how I'll feel about him in the end of this therapy and stuff; but one thing that remains unchanging is that he's not changed, and because he's not changed the potential for him to hurt me is still there and still great.
I'll never understand why when I let him back in to my life, no questions asked, he lied to grandma about me just to hurt me.
Just like the first time he hurt me- I had done nothing wrong, nothing more than love him unconditionally. No matter what he did in the past I loved him and he fkd me over- for nothing. He got nothing from that lie. It served no purpose, had no function, and gave him nothing.

That's a part of his mentality I don't understand.
I do understand hurting people, even if you love them, because they hurt you- I understand that. But hurting someone for nothing??? Someone who loves you, for doing nothing worng???
That's just above my comprehension.

I'm not sure, even when I'm done with my therapy- if I'm ever going to be willing to take that chance again.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
User avatar
AliceWonders
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:10 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby wisdom » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:39 am

AliceWonders wrote:
wisdom wrote:All of the above strikes me as essential to work through in pretty deep depth with your therapist(s). It seems to be involved in much of your prior on-the-edge and acting out behaviors.

This is certainly the plan, right now we are working on getting me to a point of functionality (where I am able to live, enjoy life in some kind of 'normal' way) and making sure that myself and others are safe (I'm not going to take my own life or snap in a violent rage and harm anyone else either) before opening up too much.
I became very aggressive over the summer months. Violence was high in me, and as was sadism and many other deep/dark compulsions. Things were pretty scarey for me and for those around me. Both my X's (Xhubs & Son's Father) thought I would kill them at one (or even a few) point(s) because of the insane rages and injustices which were brewing within me.

wisdom wrote:Not suggesting direct contact with the perpetrator as part of the recovery process but perhaps as part of the recovery there could be a deep psych probe / evaluation of your brother, including a detailed accounting of the incidents. That might then be given to YOUR therapists as input as to how you proceed?

That's interesting. I have no idea if he's ever had a psych eval or any kind of therapy. I would imagine not. Perhaps that's something I could talk to Beth about and see if we could apply for that through the court proceedings with the CCB claim. I'm not sure if they could order him to do that or not; but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't agree to do it just for my benefit. It would serve him no purpose, and as such I can't see him sitting down with a shrink for nothing...
He still denies that 'it' ever happened though. So getting him to talk about our particular incidents would literally be a 1 in a million shot in frozen hell :lol: He never admitted it- not even when he was found guilty. I can try, of course, but that could be one piece of the puzzle I may never attain...


I know zero on criminology and psychiatric evaluations of inmates. However I 'd say its highly likely he has a very through input and evaluation, at least. This strikes me as SOP for sex offenders because all inmates are very expensive to incarcerate and yet they are also concerned with putting them out on parole, recidivism, etc. Here is a link I found to Correctional Service Canada - Psychological Services
http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/plcy/cdsh ... -eng.shtml
If he has not, it may be possible for them to convince him to thoroughly cooperate in the interest of his own eventual release. The psych staff are highly trained and are extreemly well versed with denial, lying, antisocial traits, deception, etc. Some prisons also hire (or can hire) outside psych experts to do full workups. Some of these contract people are world class experts. So I'm thinking 1. call the prison and have a chat with the psych director and find out "in general" what they can do in house and via outside contractors and then 2. stay in close contact with the victim compensation people and just lay it out to them what you want and why you want it. Push for as much detail and depth in the eval / history as you can possibly get. Make sure it all goes directly to your therapist.
AliceWonders wrote:
wisdom wrote:At some point, after you have processed all through the above THOROUGHLY, you may, down the road may want to have a conversation with him. That radical a move however I absolutely leave up to both you and your therapists.

I don't want to converse with him :lol: - I want to kill him.
I want to pulverize him, maim him, humiliate him, degrade him, and both beat & rape him brutally, and then some.
But I also want to have him hold me, love me, and be my protector.
I want to be there for him and support him, to love him, and have him in my life.
I hate him and I love him, and sometimes one is stronger than the other. It's very confusing for me, how I feel about him.
I'm not sure how I'll feel about him in the end of this therapy and stuff; but one thing that remains unchanging is that he's not changed, and because he's not changed the potential for him to hurt me is still there and still great.
I'll never understand why when I let him back in to my life, no questions asked, he lied to grandma about me just to hurt me.
Just like the first time he hurt me- I had done nothing wrong, nothing more than love him unconditionally. No matter what he did in the past I loved him and he fkd me over- for nothing. He got nothing from that lie. It served no purpose, had no function, and gave him nothing.
That's a part of his mentality I don't understand.
I do understand hurting people, even if you love them, because they hurt you- I understand that. But hurting someone for nothing??? Someone who loves you, for doing nothing wrong???
That's just above my comprehension.


Indeed the above seems extreemly convoluted. One thing is for sure, I'm not suggesting at all that you "open yourself up" and making yourself vulnerable to this person after what has happened. I do think however you would likely benefit (in your own time, with the support of your therapist) in having a very realistic picture of this guy. I.e. not idealized nor demonized. More gray with some very ugly black spots! Having an in depth psych eval of him, possibly covering his recall of the abuse specifics, and his various mind sets in the hands of your therapist, who could then work with you - bit by bit - only at your own pace - might bring a refreshing ray of reality to this situation, which might help with your detangling?

Independent of the above, but just as important, you might work with your therapist as to enable you to simulate what your mental faculties (cognitive, emotional, hopes, dreams, fantasies, realities...) would have been like back then, just prior to your abuse. You noted you were a very happy little girl and later at least one teacher noticed a huge change in your persona. If you could work with your therapist as to what the typical hopes, dreams, cognitive capabilities, etc. of say a typical 8-10 year old girl would likely be you might go back in time yourself and understand you (and your limits) as your self was back then. This should all be very non traumatic because its you before any trouble. Get to know your self really well back then. Perhaps recapture some of those very normal, typically very nice, good feelings, fantasies, etc. - about yourself and about "the world" as you knew it back then. Sort of reconnect the string to where you were prior to any of the trauma.

Having those good memories, plus working with your therapist as an adult into his mind set, aberrations, specific psychopathy, etc. might be a way to help "detangle".

I was amazed at your prior observations and think you really hit on some very interesting things during the abuse that sort of got stuck in your mind. For example some of the specific wild pornographic movie scenes, etc. (Quite intense for a young gal.) I'd assume lots of stuff from that time period might have been fused together in to your earliest sexuality and concepts of being a women. Tangling the good and innocent you out of all that will undoubtedly be tricky. That's all the way back at the fountainhead where the later character distortions flowed. If you need to detangle the knot, that's where the string must re enter.

Again, I'm not in any way suggesting you need to "reconcile" in any way with your abuser! Nor am I suggesting you "need" to talk to him face to face as a final step in getting past this stuff. On the contrary, I think you should get as much info on him to your therapist (and this court case could be a golden opportunity to request that your therapist be given total access to as much of that detail as possible.) Then, you two can work to together plucking all the "fragments" of this out of your mind. I see it as sort of like a smashed glass wound - you have to take each fragment out - piece by piece, shard by shard. Unfortunately there are likely to be many and the removal process will pinch a bit. Concurrent with getting the shards out you can also see to it that the pre-incident little girl gets all the love she should have had all along the way, as part of your total healing process.
I am not a professional therapist. My postings here are provided for general informational purposes only and are not intended as, nor should it be considered a substitute for, professional medical or psychological advice. See: site Disclaimer and Notes
wisdom
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:35 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby AliceWonders » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:05 pm

Wisdom,

I'll be completely honest with you.

Since my grandfather got sick and I contacted my brother (through the jails chaplin) to tell him about gpa's illness and then his death following, I've been struggling with wanting to have some kind of comunication with him (writing/phone calls/visits.ect...) but that's not based on this (what you said) it was based on opening that door, finding him, knowing he's actually alive, and where on this earth he is.

Like I said, it's confussing the way I feel about him, and with the court case now coming for compensation and therapy, I almost feel I should talk to him so that I can tell him that it's not about 'HIM' or revenge that I'm doing this- I'm doing it becuase I need the therapy to get well and I don't have the emoney to pay for it, and this is pretty much the only way I can afford the cost of my therapy.

The court case is kinda scarey for me because he does have the right to be there, and they will more than likely notify him about this, unless I can give substancial evidence why they should wave his right to know about the claim.

Because they currently haven't found the file in the criminal courts data base (we need the court transcript and the verdict in order to do this without me having to give verbal testimony to what actually happened, and to have proof of his being found guilty) and if we don't find these documents, he'll have to be notified and questioned about his involvement and verdict, etc...

So in a way I want to contact him to tell him what's going on, why I'm doing this (not out of anger/revenge) and also to ask him for his compliance (admitance of at least the veridict from the trial) and tell him I don't want him to be there- I don't want to have to see him in court or testify 'against him' again. Basically I wanna tell him, it's not about 'HIM' it's about ME and what I need because of what happened.

So there is a lot going there.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. For now I'm trying to see if I can find the documentation, and waver his involvement/knowledge of what's happening (if possible) so that it doesn't need to get any harder than it already is, for me personally, and possibly for him as well- I don't know what he'll think/feel about this stuff.
But if at some point I do break down and contact him for some reason in the near future, it's because of these other things going on- not because I'm interested in 'getting to know him' or anything like that. I just want that to be clear, incase I do seek him out and it does make it to the boards at a later time- k?

wisdom wrote:So I'm thinking 1. call the prison and have a chat with the psych director and find out "in general" what they can do in house and via outside contractors and then 2. stay in close contact with the victim compensation people and just lay it out to them what you want and why you want it. Push for as much detail and depth in the eval / history as you can possibly get. Make sure it all goes directly to your therapist.


Thank you Wisdom,
I'm going to look into getting his psych info and I've also begun the process of attaining the same biological info through adoptions services, to see if there's any possible genetic links to my psychology and some of my medical history as well.

Do you think I should call the prison myself, or should I see if Beth can do that?

I'm sure my brother has some serious psychological issues himself.

I know he was abandoned by his biological mother when he was 2 (left with a babysitter) and was in and out of foster care the next 5 years, until my parents adopted him at 7 years of age.
No one (not even him I'm sure) knows what living with his 'mother' was like, and at the trial his defence said he was sexually abused while in foster care; but I'm not sure if that's in fact true or just another one of his many lies :roll: (playing the victim in court, etc...) so I'm sure that the life he had moving around from place to place, possibly suffering abuses of various kinds and degrees, has lead him to have some severe issues later on.

He seems unable to form real bonds to people and ultimately lacks trust with those he should trust. He can trust criminals just fine; but when it came to family he couldn't allow for love and trust to happen. I do understand that in a way (because I did it too); chances are I understand him better than I realize- huh?
That's interesting...
The more I ponder that thought, the more I see that I repeated many of HIS patterns in life:
- running away
- criminal behaviour and social groups
- aviodance
- lying (I'm more pathological & he's more compulsive; but still)
- theft
- refusal of intimacy/trust issues/etc...
I have realized that the running awaything is something I got from him, I knew that a long time ago; but these other things are him as well, and I find that very interesting...

Beth mentioned that to me the other week, that I became him in some aspects, took a piece of him into me and held on to it some how. I didn't understand what she said at the time, and I outright refused it actually :lol: (internally) actually told her "I'm not sure about that..." and I'm still not 'sure' about it; but it does seem probable doesn't it?
That's interesting...

wisdom wrote:Indeed the above seems extreemly convoluted. One thing is for sure, I'm not suggesting at all that you "open yourself up" and making yourself vulnerable to this person after what has happened. I do think however you would likely benefit (in your own time, with the support of your therapist) in having a very realistic picture of this guy. I.e. not idealized nor demonized. More gray with some very ugly black spots! Having an in depth psych eval of him, possibly covering his recall of the abuse specifics, and his various mind sets in the hands of your therapist, who could then work with you - bit by bit - only at your own pace - might bring a refreshing ray of reality to this situation, which might help with your detangling?

No, I can never open myself up to him again. I'll never allow myself to be vulnerable to him again. He had that chance when I was 18 and he blew it. He's not 'safe' and if ever I do approach him again, for whatever reason, I now know to be on gaurd.

Making him gray- That's gonna be hella hard! :lol:
I'm learning to make people in my current suroundings 'gray' and that's very difficult at times; but him???
That's gonna take A LOT OF THERAPY 4 SURE!!!! :wink:

I do want to detangle him from my psyche though. I don't like the thought of 'someone else running around inside my head' and being warped by him/his actions.
Do you think if therapy is successful and I weed him/his trauma out of my head, I'll be able to find pleasure in 'normal things' ever? Or will always feel as dull and deprived as I do now?
I'm curious about that???
My life used to be filled with excitement and pleasure, granted there were also huge crashes in there too; but now everything is flat, dull, and without intensity. I don't feel 'alive' anymore because I'm just living- if that makes sense?

wisdom wrote:Independent of the above, but just as important, you might work with your therapist as to enable you to simulate what your mental faculties (cognitive, emotional, hopes, dreams, fantasies, realities...) would have been like back then, just prior to your abuse. You noted you were a very happy little girl and later at least one teacher noticed a huge change in your persona. If you could work with your therapist as to what the typical hopes, dreams, cognitive capabilities, etc. of say a typical 8-10 year old girl would likely be you might go back in time yourself and understand you (and your limits) as your self was back then. This should all be very non traumatic because its you before any trouble. Get to know your self really well back then. Perhaps recapture some of those very normal, typically very nice, good feelings, fantasies, etc. - about yourself and about "the world" as you knew it back then. Sort of reconnect the string to where you were prior to any of the trauma.

Having those good memories, plus working with your therapist as an adult into his mind set, aberrations, specific psychopathy, etc. might be a way to help "detangle".

My youth is so BLOCKED OUT and I hate that!!!! Do you think something like hypnotherapy could be helpful in this area?

My memories are so few and the rest is so completely black to me. It's very frustrating actually because I don't remember very much about my life, or about ME at all.

wisdom wrote:I was amazed at your prior observations and think you really hit on some very interesting things during the abuse that sort of got stuck in your mind. For example some of the specific wild pornographic movie scenes, etc. (Quite intense for a young gal.) I'd assume lots of stuff from that time period might have been fused together in to your earliest sexuality and concepts of being a women. Tangling the good and innocent you out of all that will undoubtedly be tricky. That's all the way back at the fountainhead where the later character distortions flowed. If you need to detangle the knot, that's where the string must re enter.

I see what you're saying, and it totally makes sense; but I don't know how that works.
Like how do you combat that which happened at such an intergral part of forming sexuality?
How do you remove those triggers that enduce fantasy, bring pleasure, breed lust, and yet still have the amount of carnal passion to affectively find release? Which I suppose again raises the question, will I ever be able to experience 'normal pleasures' and find enjoyment in that at some point???

I hope you don't see this as me disagreeing with you, or contradicting things because that's not the case at all. I'm just wondering what happens after these things are dealt with. Once my perception has changed, will that in turn effect my responses to 'normal' activities and pleasures as well?
Like, will I ever be able to experience pleasures that 'normal' and actually be able to have pleasure reside there for me personally???
Not only in sex, but in other things as well...

I guess what I'm asking is, when I change, will my 'system' change too?

wisdom wrote:Then, you two can work to together plucking all the "fragments" of this out of your mind. I see it as sort of like a smashed glass wound - you have to take each fragment out - piece by piece, shard by shard. Unfortunately there are likely to be many and the removal process will pinch a bit. Concurrent with getting the shards out you can also see to it that the pre-incident little girl gets all the love she should have had all along the way, as part of your total healing process.

I'm unclear as to how 'the little girl gets love' at this point; but I'm not too worried about it because I'm sure it'll sink in at some point as everything else tends to over time with me...

You've given me much to do and ponder right now.
Thank you for that. :D
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
User avatar
AliceWonders
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:10 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby wisdom » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:14 am

Alice,
I've ruminated on your additions to the jealousy topics and must admit stuff is still spinning in my head. Would like to drill one level deeper if that's O.K. with you? [As always just stop if we are in too deep :D ]

I'm struck that jealousy is a great kids topic. That is, most kids can feel pure jealousy and most parents understand that it takes some time and TLC to overcome the rawness of that emotion. (Just check out a kids birthday party and note who is having all the fun?...pretty typical. Some parents seem to breed sibling rivalry while others don't. Some kids seem especially needy to hog virtually all the parent limelight and others are much more independent.)

To perhaps explore further I want to play back some clips you posted about your relationship with your brother, back in childhood as a set up, then look at the jealousy topics one more time (where in some areas I'm really tracking you well.)

AliceWonders wrote:
  • Aside from what happened, he was an ideal brother.
  • I remember that he was fun to play with.
  • I looked up to him, idealized him, pretty much worshiped him as most little sisters do with their older brothers
  • as the protectors.
  • He treated me well.
  • My mother said there was never any jealousy or cruelty between us
    - some bickering, but nothing outside of the 'norm'
  • he loved me in all aspects;
  • when everyone finally found out what happened they were utterly shocked, and I think mom and dad felt violated by him as well...
  • We took care of each other.
  • After he would be punished I would sneak into his room and try and sooth him.
  • That time when I bit my dads leg, I was only thinking of my brother and wanting to make it stop because I loved and cared for him so much.
  • We were tightly bonded by both our love and the familial abuse.
  • I needed his love and support. The way my father was to me in emotional my abuse and my brothers physical abuse, placed a great barrier between us in my forming a proper bond to my dad. I see that now after looking into my life for the past year... Where the love, nurturing and support of a father should have been - I had placed my older brother instead because he was all those things, and my dad wasn't.
  • My father wasn't 'all bad' we did have some good times and I do have some fond memories of him from my childhood; but they are few and far between, and greatly over shadowed by the negatives.
  • my brother though (to me) was 'all good' and filled the void of what I didn't have with my father.
  • My brother was also dependent on my love and support because it was unconditional.


And some flip side....

AliceWonders wrote:
  • I don't want to converse with him :lol: - I want to kill him. :lol:
  • I want to pulverize him, maim him, humiliate him, degrade him, and both beat & rape him brutally, and then some.
  • But I also want to have him hold me, love me, and be my protector.
  • I want to be there for him and support him, to love him, and have him in my life.
  • I hate him and I love him, and sometimes one is stronger than the other. It's very confusing for me, how I feel about him.
  • I'm not sure how I'll feel about him in the end of this therapy and stuff; but one thing that remains unchanging is that he's not changed, and because he's not changed the potential for him to hurt me is still there and still great.
  • I'll never understand why when I let him back in to my life, no questions asked, he lied to grandma about me just to hurt me.
  • Just like the first time he hurt me- I had done nothing wrong, nothing more than love him unconditionally.
  • No matter what he did in the past I loved him and he fkd me over- for nothing. He got nothing from that lie. It served no purpose, had no function, and gave him nothing.
  • That's a part of his mentality I don't understand.
  • I do understand hurting people, even if you love them, because they hurt you - I understand that.
  • But hurting someone for nothing??? Someone who loves you, for doing nothing wrong???
  • That's just above my comprehension.


O.K. with that as just the tee up I want to really get into the working part of this post. While I understood 90% of what you wrote I had immense trouble really understanding all the nuances of 10% of the remainder. Felt there was some exceptionally rich stuff you posted! Perhaps if I take it apart we can have another go at it? Just for clarification, and perhaps some expansion reflecting on your above you-dad-brother childhood situation, or anything else that hits you on a second reflection

Even though it seems like only you and I talking I'll bet there are quite a few others that struggle with "emotional incest", skimpy parental attention to them as kids, fairly intense sibling rivalry in light of parental deficits, pitting one child against the other, etc., so I think much of what we discuss here has pretty broad application for others too.

wisdom wrote:1. bringing up prior mates in an odd way to prove (perhaps only to themselves) they are strongly sexually desirable. Or, to project into their mate their own morbid sense of vulnerability. When the Non actually starts experiencing pain (which he was likely maneuvered into feeling) the PD, totally unconscious of the fact they have “engineered” that, on another level, identifies themselves with the Non’s live experience of it. The end result is the PD is validated and comforted by the distress the Non is experiencing. Sort of birds of a feather and/or "power truce" / détente.



AliceWonders wrote:bringing up prior mates something I've never done with a guy I'm currently dating, and this seems to be almost counter productive to me too. Why would you poison the infatuation of a new man by bringing up the affairs with another/prior lover?
***
I would tell a new guy about past sexual experiences, yes; but not about the guy at all. I would make it about me and what I did, how much fun I had and something he would love too- taking the other person completely out of the scenario, and tailoring the sexuality to the new guys desires alone.
***
Some of the more blatant mind games I would do to create jealousy would be: (continued)
- Sleeping with their best friends, or someone from work, someone they can't do anything about (bigger/stronger/more powerful/etc...) and throwing it in their face after the fact.
- I've even sent them pictures, videos and written detailed descriptions of what I did with other guys just to hurt them and breed that jealousy.


wisdom wrote:2. overt flirting with others as a way to control the current mate – “See how vulnerable you are to my rejection / abandonment of you? Can you feel that? If you don’t attend to me in every way I need so I never experience that dreaded feeling of being vulnerable to abandonment, if you slip up even one little bit, I'll…I’ll…I’ll run off with someone else. Can you see how easy it would be for me to do that? I’m good at this. See how good I am at it? What’s that, fear I smell from you? I can relate! The intense need for validation is then blame shifted back to the Non - I had no choice! You made me feel horrible! I had to do it! What did you expect? Flirting as a way to maneuver the mate into experiencing that morbid dreaded feeling that’s inside them – if they do (did) not conform to some expectation they are (were) subject to rapid abandonment / replacement / freezing out / horrible punishment. They have to be hypervigilent and “at work” to be accepted and loved. They are perpetually stuck “on the hot seat” and at total risk! Because they have very low self worth and flawed at the core the only possible chance to “survive” is vigilant control of the supply! Control is absolutely necessary! [And wow does that take energy!]


AliceWonders wrote:overt flirting with others as a way to control the current mate I never did this either, and in fact I would avoid flirting with other guys in front of my 'new guy' because that would just cause jealousy and friction between us. I had a lot of male friends, and was a bit of a flirt when my BF wasn't around sure; but if guys were too friendly in front of HIM it was more of a headache than anything. So again this just seems rather counter productive to me in it's function.
***
I would definitely flirt and have many male friends when my guy wasn't around, of course; but when he was there my attention was all on him, and he was my world completely- no one mattered.
***
All of these center around devotion, and letting him know, see and feel he is the center of your world. Being as many of my guys and me met in the same school, workplace, clubs, websites, whatever, they [including BF#1?] were easily able to see the product of my 'side flirting' in the ways other guys wanted and desired me; but I wouldn't ever have prompted these things in front of them, nor played into them while I was with my guy.
***
If a guy started hitting on me, flirting with me, something like that with my guy around I would quickly turn my attention back to my guy and praise him (right in front of the flirter) to give him a supported reassurance that he was 'the one'.


wisdom wrote:3. small, irregular “domination” behaviors that can’t be responded to due to moral / social / ethical / character constraints. Imagine two dog’s running around. Both dogs seem to be enjoying each other yet the alpha dog painfully bites the beta dog’s ear. The beta dog endures pain but blows it off in the interest of keeping fun activity going. He chooses to endure it and not take the time to escalate it into a showdown dogfight. He (falsely) assumes the other dog has empathy and "certainly" would not continue that aggressive behavior. Over time the alpha dog escalates and the beta dog takes more and more abuse. Some human examples here might be in public "horse play" where because of typical moral / social / ethical / character the partner is generally precluded from responding assertively / aggressively and tends to just suck it up. Things like “playfully” nipping your ear lobe in a painful way then acting surprised “such a little thing actually hurt”? Digging nails in during a relaxing backrub past the point where it feels good, then acting surprised / shocked that was painful? Out in public sticking their tong in your ear or your mouth, or kissing you hard and deeply at an odd time (in the total absence of any elation, passion, love, etc) feeling to the partner more like a deliberate act of domination vs. any sign of real affection.


AliceWonders wrote:small, irregular “domination” behaviors that can’t be responded to due to moral / social / ethical / character constraints. yeah I did that too- lol. Sexually arousing them in public was always a fun form of torture, and a kind of foreplay for later on- lol. I don't think I ever looked at it as a dominating thing though, more so playful and insatiable mind fk, precursor to later ventures. Touching them, showing them a bit of flesh in a coy and alluring way, or sending them naughty text images/emails/images when we were apart- that kind of thing.


wisdom wrote:4. Sexually arousing a mate leading to certain frustration- e.g. purposefully arousing a mate sexually to a fairly high level of excitement at a time when you two must part, and that excitement can't come to full expression/fruition. Note the rev up in excitement is not shared. (Its highly manipulative/exploitative.) The “hot and bothered” mate is frustrated, denied and held back. The promise is to reunite later for hot times together. Having no actual arousal themselves, this was really just a ploy to insure during the absence they would not be “forgotten”. And that the partner’s interest will not drift. On reunion the still needy partner wonders, wow I thought totally about her in our absence but for her it was much more “out of sight out of mind”.


AliceWonders wrote:purposefully arousing a mate sexually to a fairly high level of excitement at a time when you two must part now this I did do! Before any of my guys would leave/I would leave them, I would take them to a place of desire and passion before we parted ways. Letting them know how wonderful I am (how much they want me) and keeping that image of lust playing on their mind until we were together again.


wisdom wrote:5. Staging demonstrations of popularity - arranging to get calls on the cell phone when you will be spending couple time together, or checking their chats/email. (any tactic similar to the Village People song Hollywood "Tell your friends you walked off the stage. Then slip outside and call and have yourself paged. Get on the phone and scream as though in a rage...") It hindsight it seems like it was perhaps maneuvering to introduce doubt in your mind that you are on solid ground with them, that the exclusive pair-bond is safe, solid, exclusive and secure. In addition it seems to serve a need in them to be perceived as very popular/desirable. And perhaps to constantly “keep you on your toes attending to them” because you are very vulnerable.


AliceWonders wrote:arranging to get calls on the cell phone, checking their chats/email when you will be spending time together. Yet another counter productive thing in my opinion, and something I never ever did.
***
Taking calls, texts, emails- never! But I would call, text and email with other guys when my guy wasn't around. I would just ignore any incoming communication while with my guy though, and make sure my focus was completely on HIM!
***
bringing up prior mates
overt flirting with others
arranging to get calls on the cell phone, checking their chats/email when you will be spending time together.
[above] seemed counter productive' was because it breeds suspicion and distrust.
***
Some of the more blatant mind games I would do to create jealousy would be:
- sending text messages meant for other guys to my BF asking for hook ups, thanking someone for sexual encounters, telling them something naughty and pretending it was a misdirected text. I also did that with emails.
- sending out mass emails to a bunch of guys, announcing the fight we (my BF & I) had and saying I needed to get out of here/blow off steam/whatever, and making sure that my BF got a copy of it to see for himself that he made me mad and I was gonna replace him instantly.


NEW: Love the one you are with with at the moment with 100% devotion, then cut it off

AliceWonders wrote:Treating them like kings and placing them on that pedestal played a few functions:
1. it made them feel worshiped, secure, admired and special. no one ever loved them the way I loved them because I loved them completely and utterly- they could do no wrong.
2. the feeling that my adoration created in them was like a drug they became addicted to, and they loved being with me just to have that intense feeling I provided.
***
I would directly say to my guys, "Well if you won't- I'll just find someone else who will." and I would.
***
I would use my other guys to fill my needs (not always sexual- this was usually more monetary with me than anything) and then use the devotion and praise to sneak back into my guys good graces, and make amends. Because my network of men was so big, they knew that if they wouldn't, I could easily find someone else who would, and they would usually give me what I wanted/needed/or at least an explanation of why they couldn't; but if they didn't I would get it some where else without hesitation.
***
The kicker is- because they know how wonderful they feel with they're with me, and how much they crave that wonderful all the time; they know that if I give that wonderful to someone else- they could be gone.
***
The devotion and and admiration plays just as big a part in creating jealousy as any of the negative/in your face stuff does. Without that constant craving between the two of you, there's no real loss of anything. There's no threat.
[note sure I follow at all the above. Parts don't "connect" to each other in my mind.]
***
Breeding into the lust and creating a world of your own (just for the two of you) is what keeps them addicted.


NEW: I can replace you in an instant, but you will never replace me

AliceWonders wrote:Jealousy on the part of my guys is always there. They were always aware of my admirers and how easily I could replace them if I so choose to.
***
If they upset me, blew me off, made me mad- they could see very clearly how easily I could be gone, happy and forget all about them if that's what I wanted.
***
Seeing other guys interest in me, was as reassuring at it was weakening. Other guys idolized me the same way I idolized my guy. Because I worshiped them, they could see what it felt like for me to be worshiped by others, and they were always on guard for someone sneaking into the queens underthings :lol: They didn't want to loose the feeling I gave them. They didn't want to loose the love and devotion I provided them. The saw very clearly that I revived this same very addictive thing from others, and they always knew that their throne (position) was precarious and completely under my control.

[ This was the most confusing paragraph of all for me to really understand. I don't understand who's who (BF#1, prior BF#1's that had "fallen", the fan club, other guys flirting from the periphery. They-who? from other-who?..
"Because I worshiped them, they could see what it felt like for me to be worshiped by others" -- please expand/clarify, how does that work? On about my 10th reading I got - HPDs have an empathy challenge. However when are intensely adored they can sense that coming from outside themselves and it feels real good. They then can imagine that others have feelings like that too. (sort of a rudimentary empathy). However I'm not making the bridge: I worship BF and he realizes how good it is. He then understands why other worship you also? How can he have that recognition of such rivalry and still feel great/exclusive/protected/loved/like a king, etc.?]


Was struck that much of the above jealousy stuff might have roots in sibling rivalry and early family dynamics. Trying to get parents attention? Trying to get emotional needs met? On the second round through that's what much of this feels like.

PS- I went to IMDB and read the plot summary (the large one) for "The Howling". If you can deal with it I'd suggest reading that. Were I you I'd also get a copy of the movie. Watch it with your notebook very handy.... (or don't, if this seems way too much!!!)
I am not a professional therapist. My postings here are provided for general informational purposes only and are not intended as, nor should it be considered a substitute for, professional medical or psychological advice. See: site Disclaimer and Notes
wisdom
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:35 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby AliceWonders » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:05 pm

wisdom wrote:O.K. with that as just the tee up I want to really get into the working part of this post. While I understood 90% of what you wrote I had immense trouble really understanding all the nuances of 10% of the remainder. Felt there was some exceptionally rich stuff you posted! Perhaps if I take it apart we can have another go at it? Just for clarification, and perhaps some expansion reflecting on your above you-dad-brother childhood situation, or anything else that hits you on a second reflection


For sure. I'm sure it's confusing or hard to understand for others as it's something I'm only begining to examin within myself...
I think to better understand this, looking at one of my past posts (if you haven't seen this one yet) could help to see the acting mindframe and the cues of manipulation from the start (Manipulation of the Mind 101 histrionic-personality/topic62031.html#p463676 ) because it all begins there, and then it just snowballs and spiderwebs (both bigger in size and dynamics) from that point on.

Manipulation 101 wrote:Key Points:
She observes you. She sees more about you than anyone should ever pay attention to and monitors every one of reactions (or lack thereof) to see what stimulates your lust, your content, your anger, your insecurities, your passion, your pity, your rage, your favour, your aggression, your delight, your desires, your sexuality, your pride, your motivation, your abandonment, your every strength and lacking (even those you don’t realize you have) in order to use those ‘tools’ to her benefit.
Erotoica wrote: “If I take you from behind push myself into your mind when you least expect it, will you try and reject it?”

Can she peek inside you and by doing so, bring you into her world- or will you reject her, and push her advances away? She’s looking into what kind of person you are, are you going to resist or are you an easy target?
Once the common bond has been found and established between the 2 of you, she will begin to probe into the weaknesses and figure out what you’re lacking.You can only get so far in a mind fukc by giving someone something they know they enjoy- the trick to a good deep penetration of the mind is to find something they may not even realize they’re into or need, and present it to them as something only she can give them. That is what she does...

She finds out what she can give you to make your world a better place, but only with her in it ! This too can happen easily over conversation and in a seemingly innocent way. Words, body language, even punctuation and grammar in written text says so much about someone and the choice of words, in fluctuation and the way you present your physical stance before her- all of these things lend to her credit and figuring you out. Seeing what you need that you may not see you need, and presenting you with your desires in a way that takes you aback and makes you astonished that anyone knows you so well...
Erotica wrote: “If I'm in charge and I treat you like a child will you let yourself go wild let my mouth go where it wants to”


Figuring out what the man in you needs to make you as happy and care free as a school boy. Feeding into that boyish need for self satisfaction and comfort, that nurturing and understanding, the common identity and something extra that only she has been able to provide you with- will you become lost in her? Will you go wild? If she pleases you, can she have what she wants from you???

Erotica wrote: “Once you put your hand in the flame you can never be the same. There's a certain satisfaction in a little bit of pain... Give it up, do as I say. Give it up and let me have my way, I'll give you love, I'll hit you like a truck- I only hurt the ones I love”

“I know you want me. I'm not gonna hurt you (I'm not gonna hurt you) just close your eyes...”


It’s blind siding to see how simply this happens, but like I said she is having a totally normal ‘getting to know you’ conversation so it’s almost impossible to see it coming. It’s not what she says or what you say that is important or distinctive, it’s what she takes in and stores away from the conversation that is what will destroy you in the end.

Quotes from 'Erotica' refer to selected lines from one of Madona's hit songs, Erotica- my montra for many years and something that still sets the preditory fire off inside me.Feel free to listen to it on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ0JXPSoNf4 and hear the way seduction plays. The dance on mental penitration and onset of a dangerous addiction to a woman named 'Dita'


So basically what we do (or I do, not sure if others do this too or not) is read 'you' from the very start. Look deep inside you to find that special something we can give you (that no else one can/will) to entrance you, and form the seed of addiction for later use.

wisdom wrote:NEW: Love the one you are with with at the moment with 100% devotion, then cut it off

Kind of... This is where it gets a bit tricky...
Using the above dynamics and probing to demonstrate how we can prey on the mind and entice interest and longing; what must be realized here is that we actually do give/provide these things to the one we love- fully and utterly. So the seed of seduction/addiction has not only been planted, but it's been nurished and rigerously tended to, to create the perfect garden of desire and 'comfort'.
Because when we are together (both in a relationship and when face to face) everything is wonderful, perfect, carefully tended to and you feel ultimately happy, satisfied and seccure in that 'world' with us (we do create our own world and bring you into it- I can't stress that enough!) you crave us and feel your best, only when we are with you. Essentially, we fill the holes that are lacking in YOUR LIFE because we expect you to do the same for us.
We do this eagerly and with our whole heart. In the beginning we mean everything we say and do, and we want it to be the end of our own search for a partner, we firmly believe we have found 'the one' and you are it!
That's why other guys get placed to the side. Not out of 'duty' to you; but out of our own, pure, meaningful devotion. We found you at last, and we are truely content with this. For a while...


Go back to the begining, for a second, and remember were/how we met you. No matter how we met, or where we met, chances are we had other admirers persuing us- right?
Our fan clubs are everywere!
So you've already seen the competion in gaining our affections, how many other men wanted us and would love to be were you are (with us), etc...
The part that baffles you (or what always seems hard for my guys to digest at least) is that WE CHOSE YOU out of all them to be 'the one' and no matter how much we try and prove thyat you are the one we love- it's never really something you can wrap your head around completely.
We still keep our fan clubs (for more on that see here: histrionic-personality/topic66338.html ) but you have become the king of our heart.
You have effectively won the prize that other men seek; but you're always wondering 'why'???
So even though you're happy and astonished you have won the woman of your dreams, against many other suiters- there is always suspicion of our 'motives' (why did we choose you? What could we possibly have to gain from you? What are we up to? How could you possibly have been set above the rest? What is she trying to get from me? etc...) and that also feeds into jealousy with our 'fans' becuase you assume that we will find something bigger and better in them.
However that's not the case!
We selected you because we found something in YOU that set you aside from the rest. The rest of our fans are simply objects of amuzesment and 'play things' but we chose you to fill the role of our partner and be the provider/protector/lover we seek on much deeper level within us.
(Supliment an insufficant or missing Father fugure here- perhaps???)
We expect you to fill the holes in us just as we do in you.
We are willing and more importantly WANTING to be your everything in life and in love; but if you don't show that same adoration and addictive longing which we have towards you in return- we become very insecure and on gard.

This is were we turn to our 'fans' for emotional support and comfort (in various ways) to fill the hole we're lacking in your love because you just can't feel secure in the fact we chose you out of all of them, and this is where the 'cut off' begins...

We turn to our fans and tell them all about our struggles (creating dynamic triangles- they think you're bad [because that's all they ever hear] but we continue to emphasise your goodness to you [hoping that loving you death will in turn spur your love for us to be all the deeper] and for us [thanks to black and white thinking] you keep shifting from not good enough, to everything we hope and need in life) complete polar opposits are used to both keep us tied to you, while seperating ourselves from you, and preparing for you to leave (not love us) at the same time.

Fans tell us we deserve better than what you are giving us. They say that they would never treat us like that, and that they would be everything we needed if they were in your position. They place us on the same pedistal we place you on, and they make us feel comforted and seccure just as we do with you. The fans supliment what you won't give= all of you unconditionally and utterly, with no suspicions or limitations whatsoever.
They are filling the hole you left with your own suspcions and insecurities.

They also will play the other side as well (fans) and try to paint us as insufficent partners to YOU because they want to swoop in and catch us on the rebound. :roll:

This has taken forms for me personally in a few ways through my life:

- with BF #1 (my son's father) his friends would say they saw me talking/flirting/hanging out with so and so, some guys (the ones I wouldn't give the time of day to) would say they actually had sex with me as well, when in fact they didn't! (that's a certain odity I'll never understand- guys who don't get 'it' brag about it and flaunt it [or call you horrible names out of spite] while the guys that do get 'it' just keep it private and between us/a few close friends/etc...) All of those things were pretty 'harmless' but they were enough to breed jealousy and suspisions in my BF at the time. That relationship was from early high school to my early 20's.

- with my Xhusband his friends would say that I was only interested in him to be a father figure for my son and that I was after his parents money, etc... Again, this was untrue but the combination of 'what I could get from him' and the mass fan clubs of men who could provide 'more than I could get from him' was enough to create an unspoken insecurity and suspicion. That relationship was in my later 20's.

- with my recent XBF (the one I broke up with before coming here) some of my fans would say I was actually cheating on him, that they had cheated with me, etc... That was retardely untrue and brings me back to "guys who will lie about having sex with you" so he had become very suspisious and on gard thinking I was cheating on him, lying to him and possibly using him for something (because again, this particular BF had a hard time understanding 'why' I had chosen him out of all the rest) which led to jealousy and forming a kind of detatchment with me.

Having 'outsiders' probe and feed the fire of your already suspisious ideals creates even more of a struggle for us in making you feel seccure.
We do love you, we did choose you, we do want to be with YOU and ONLY YOU; but there's a wall there. You're on gard and you've placed a wall up to protect yourself from your own suspisions. That is very frustrating for us because no matter how hard we try, or how much we love you/show you our love/give you our love/prove our love- you're laways thinking 'something' in the back of your mind and keeping yourself safe by not getting too 'close' and/or becoming vulnerable to us.
Trying to prove our intentions are indeed genuine is exhausting for us. The more you resist the fact we love you, the more tired and annoyed we get. The more annoyed we get, the more we run to our fans for support, and what's happening here is a great innner seperationg between us- on BOTH SIDES.
Walls are being formed, tenssions are rising, anger is brewing and resentment begins to fester.

That's were pitting others against you begins. The mentality of "If you won't give me what I need I will find it somewhere else." starts to take action. We pull back from you (internally) because we see you as the primary source of our pain (father 'figure') who will only love us 'just enough' or 'not enough' to satisfy our desire to be cherished and adored.

Testing you begins. We try to gauge your effections and intentions with us to make sure you do love us, and just how much you do. If you pass a test- we are happy (for the moment) but as soon as something wavers/faulters, we retest you and if you fail there's pain inside us because you're not what we thought you were.. You're not the unconditional love we seek, and the amount of love is inadiquate (just like daddy?)= we are mad as hell!

Here's the actual CUT OFF!!!
We push you out and away from us. We push you out of ourselves internally (creating walls and bringing new 'objects' in your previously seccured position) and we push you away from us (making sure you know just what it is we're doing, thinking, capable of, etc..)

This is classically where I'd begin to plot and/or give ultimatums.
Ultimatum= love me or get away from me!
Plotting= if you don't love me, I don't love you either and to prove that (and hurt you for hurting me) I'm gonna hurt YOU all the more!

That's where actual 'cheating' happens, at the breaking point where we feel there's nothing left we can do to make you love us completely.

What it is, quite simply put, is a constant replacement and supliment cycle.

1. We had a father who was insufficent and placed someone else there (for me it was my brother)
2. Not having that primary (or secondary) connection established and seccure, we then seek to fill that role and inner hole with someone else in later life.
3. Until the role is filled by 'the one' we keep safe emotional distance, while filling the hole (to a degree) with our fans.
4. When we find 'the one' we place him in that primary adoration and idealization (where we weren't able to properly establish it in early life, ergo disallowing for 'daddy dearest' to one day come off his pedistal and become 'human' [you should see what I'm saying here- if not please ask] in our eyes/perception/etc..) and it's my theory (though I could be wrong) that because that so important part of maturity in realizing our 'Godlike parents' are 'mere mortals' didn't happen, we are stuck in the stage of development where our 'father figure' (the foundation role model for all successive relationships later on) is still supposed to 'perfect' in our mind. So we place our 'the one' up on that Addonis throne to worship him and bask in his love, to feel it as a support, nuturing, protection and glorious thing. Because we should have (at one point) worshiped our fathers this same way, and also been on the reciving end of their love and affections towards us. Again, that's just my own theory on this aspect of it all.
5. Obviously, no man can live up to what we expect here. As my theory sudgests, if we'd have been able to effectively place our fathers up there, and then later realize they are imperfect (the way it's supposed to happen) we would schematically/cognitively/deeply know this is in fact unrealistic. But we don't know that (even if we do intelectually know it, it's extremely hard to be able to 'feel' that feeling and know it's 'OK'- if you know what I mean?) so the splitting happens here (just as it did with daddy) and we hate the man that should love, because he doesn't love us enough!
6. We then begin to search and fill the holes with our present object of affection (who is inadiquate in his 'job') by superficial means- flirting and the like. This will feed our need for affection (to some degree) and allow the 'king' to realize his throne can easily be overtaken if he doesn't take action in making us feel loved. So this actually has a multi function. Support US + Threaten HIM + Search for an Adicuate REPLACEMENT.
7. We find another 'object' to replace 'the one' and do it all again...

So it's really not as simple as love him 100% and the cut it off- there's a lot that goes behind that and builds up to that point of 'the chop'

wisdom wrote:NEW: I can replace you in an instant, but you will never replace me

Presicely!

Replacement for us is trivial. We're constantly seeking to fill the void and as such we are expert at becoming emotionally detatched, and suplimenting when needed. It's what we've done all our lives!

However keeping you with us is dependant on you, and your needs. By filling your needs and bringing you into us (our world) we bring your desires to life- not just sex, but anything else you need/lack which we can provide to you. In a way, we complete you and make you feel unstopable. But that's only when we love you because when we hate you we bring you smashing down in shambles- because that's how we feel inside.

The wierd thing (for me personally) is that some guys are harder to leave than others.
I've dated many men in my life, but I usually only referr to the big 3 when investigating my relationships (my son's father, my Xhubs & my recent XBF) but even these 3 are all different in the break up.
#1 (my son's father) and I were on and off for 10 years- more on than off, and we would both come back to each other.
#2 (Xhubs) and I broke up once the first year we were dating, he came back. I left him twice when we were married, he asked me back and I went back, and then he begged me back for years after leaving him again; but I never went back.
#3 (recent XBF) and were on again off agian for near 3 years- more off than on, and it was always me going back to him.
All of the other guys, just came and went with out much of a second thought or concern. Still it's #3 that stumps me the most- why did I always go back to him? What role did he fill for me? Why did I constantly break up with him (it was always me getting mad and leaving him BTW) and then always change my mind???



I gotta run for now (sorry) I'll answer the rest of this later on- k?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
User avatar
AliceWonders
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:10 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (3)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby wisdom » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:12 pm

This is a highly conceptual and quite lengthy post. I speculate on how someone with deeply ingrained incest abuse can help extract that from their self. The remnants of the abuse are insidious; the extraction takes real effort, as described below. Incest abuse strikes me as a very extreme form of damage that parents and/or siblings inflict on a person. Since all parents and all siblings do some damage to a person as they grow up, even in a typical /normal family, these techniques might also be helpful in healing from those more typical types of wounds.

AliceWonders wrote:I'm sure my brother has some serious psychological issues himself.

I know he was abandoned by his biological mother when he was 2 (left with a babysitter) and was in and out of foster care the next 5 years, until my parents adopted him at 7 years of age.

No one (not even him I'm sure) knows what living with his 'mother' was like, and at the trial his defense said he was sexually abused while in foster care; but I'm not sure if that's in fact true or just another one of his many lies (playing the victim in court, etc...) so I'm sure that the life he had moving around from place to place, possibly suffering abuses of various kinds and degrees, has lead him to have some severe issues later on.

He seems unable to form real bonds to people and ultimately lacks trust with those he should trust. He can trust criminals just fine; but when it came to family he couldn't allow for love and trust to happen. I do understand that in a way (because I did it too); chances are I understand him better than I realize- huh?
That's interesting...
The more I ponder that thought, the more I see that I repeated many of HIS patterns in life:
- running away
- criminal behavior and social groups
- avoidance
- lying (I'm more pathological & he's more compulsive; but still)
- theft
- refusal of intimacy/trust issues/etc...
I have realized that the running away thing is something I got from him, I knew that a long time ago; but these other things are him as well, and I find that very interesting...


AliceWonders wrote:Beth [professional therapist] mentioned that to me the other week, that I became him in some aspects, took a piece of him into me and held on to it some how. I didn't understand what she said at the time, and I outright refused it actually (internally) actually told her "I'm not sure about that..." and I'm still not 'sure' about it; but it does seem probable doesn't it?
That's interesting...



Expert Therapist Interpretation: Introjection of Abuser

In the above, Beth floats out a major psychiatric interpretation. And she is a well-qualified therapist, well familiar with the case. If her interpretation is correct, the imperative must be to gain a thorough understanding of the abuser’s mindset, part of which was introjected, in the service of casting that out.

In this process you are going to reprocess strong emotional memories, likely associated with primitive emotions and the limbic system, via reasoning, likely using the substantial power of the frontal lobes, to reprocess them. You feed this process with as much truth and factual detail as you possibly can about your particular abuser. Since you are currently enmeshed with your abuser, getting the facts straight here is exceptionally difficult and exceptionally valuable. Items to try to get:

  • Actual factual accounts of what was going on in the mind of the abuser (verbatims that are truthful and straightforward to understand.)
  • Expert third party opinions as to what was going on in the mindset of the abuser, particularly from well informed and highly experienced therapists, and other unbiased observers
  • Actual lifetime behavioral details and patterns of the abuser – with any aberrant behaviors in substantial detail
  • Actual behavioral details of the specific abuse incidents.
  • Factual contextual data of the entire “trivial milieu” that surrounded the abuse episodes, that may have become oddly “fused in” and significant during the highly charged emotional times. For this I suggest watching TV replays and playing top 40 hits of the time period were the abuse likely occurred. Note the fashion(s) of the times, drift back. Reconnect emotionally. Journal your dreams. Journal any fragments.

Borrowing a few Hollywood tricks of the trade

In the movie business most all highly dramatic scenes are shot simultaneously, from multiple angles, using very high-speed cameras. A good example would be an action adventure major explosion scene, or multiple car crash. These scenes take “forever” to set up, to clean up, and involve substantial risk in execution. As a result they are exceptionally expensive to produce. Once set into motion the insurance cost of having multiple cameras on the scene is miniscule, vs. the risk of failing to capture something good.

The final editors then have tons of “footage” to pick and choose from. They tend to use multiple angle, quick cuts and camera switching to create the most impactful audience experience they can. Many segments are replayed for the audience in slow motion allowing the audience to safely see what could not be seen with the naked eye. The final cut is mesmerizing because frankly, there is a ton of carefully selected, carefully edited, rich content being played back to you. In reality however you must remember that all that was patiently produced, in a very iterative process, over days and days if not months of work.

In prior abuse situations you were originally “on the set” with only one low quality “kids” camera to record it. Your job now is to go back and reconstruct those scenes using multiple top quality cameras. Think of it as walking back on the set with multiple, talented adult cameramen, each with a specialized, high quality, high-speed camera. While back on the set as an adult, as director, you reenact the scene, over and over, while several other “camera men” keep shooting it from different angles.

In this analogy the different “camera angles” include:
  • your own remembered prospective, which likely will expand and “switch around” as you watch the scene unfold over and over
  • your therapist’s interpretations – exceedingly helpful to stay on track
  • Investigations into the abuser’s mindset
  • Investigations into your abuser’s mindset, based on patterns garnered from similar abusers
  • Considerations of the abusers patterns of actual aberrant behaviors from the initial abuse till now
  • Considerations of the victims patterns of actual aberrant behaviors from the initial abuse till now
  • Considerations of other “eyewitness” that saw the original incidents.

Be your own director, “stay on location”, going back in time, as best you can and shoot ample raw footage. Use those high-speed cameras at different angles and therefore don’t miss a thing. Later you can examine the clips, frequently looking frame-by-frame as necessary.

Iterate in editing and produce the final “cut” version.

Cut the final masterpiece together using various segments selected from the voluminous supply of raw footage. The goal is to portray what in reality happened. During your final editing remember you don’t need to use everything and you are not constrained at playing things back in real time.

Use slow motion playback for your audience where that helps communicate best. For example, the following type interactions are generally best understood when played for the audience both at normal speed and also as a flashback in very slow motion:
  • “sleight of hand”
  • blame shifting
  • manipulation
  • subtle seduction
  • exploitation
  • good values inextricably entwined with bad

Identity Confusion and Diffusion

Alice, you speak of Identity Diffusion in this thread, and on this forum we have spoken at length regarding the benefits of self-reflection, and the need to maintain a cohesive sense of self that persists.

The solid, inner sense of self is absolutely a condition precedent to the next phase. It’s a condition – a state of be-ing – that must be satisfied before the real work forward in abuse detanglement begins. Following this legalistic analogy, after your own solid be-ing condition is satisfied, the performance of the contract starts. In law a contract implies at least two parties, here in psych we mean you in interactions with others. There must be a coherent sense of “me” before there can be any, non-enmeshed, stable, realistic, and non-fearful interaction with “others”.

At the edge of the self is a boundary. A solid self must exist prior to attempting to enforce or reinforce that boundary. Self-awareness and separation from Other allows that distinct boundary to exist, which in turn, prevents invasion and undue sway from outside forces.

Put any two people together in an intimate, or even close relationship; give it some time, and some boundary violations are certain to occur, in at least some ways. If either side (or both) have too permeable a boundary, you can guarantee some type of enmeshment, introjection, co-dependency, identity diffusion, etc. will occur.

Once fusion occurs, the “cure” is difficult, because four things must basically simultaneously occur:
  1. The sense of self must be once again isolated.
  2. The healthy boundary between self and others must be reestablished and upgraded
  3. That upgraded boundary must be continuously defended from new “invasions” and since its upgraded it likely requires more ongoing energy to sustain.
  4. That which flowed in during the enmeshment (due to a too-permeable boundary at that time) and attached to the self internally, must then be actively stripped off and pumped” back out.

I think of the boundary as a very flexible and semi permeable membrane, like you find in classic single cell biology. In order to maintain that boundary membrane a solid, full sense of self must exert its own force from the inside pressing out. Concurrently, the insides of the cell must be protected by that cell wall. It must function effectively to prevent any sloshing around occurring in its cell environment from sloshing around across the cell wall, invading what’s inside, introducing entropy and chaos, and degrading the integrity of what’s inside. This illustrates the need for simultaneous action.

Any time there are simultaneous actions to be addressed an iterative approach frequently provides a solid solution.

Iterative
  • Characterized by tedious repetition
  • Close to reiterate, which means to restate.
  • Each repetition step in the process is also called an "iteration"
  • Results from each iteration are used as the starting point for the next iteration.
  • ...A process you repeat again and again, each time using the results from the previous stage
  • ...the act of repeating a process usually with the aim of approaching a desired goal.
  • ...When you listen to a symphony, the theme that keeps returning is iterative. [The goal is constant. The music twists around that, departing slightly and returning. ]
  • ...close to recursion - as when the surfaces of two mirrors are exactly parallel with each other, the nested images that result demonstrate nearly infinite recursion

Speculating further on abuse treatment.

Perhaps this entire process is set into motion and by initially emboldening the healthiest aspects of yourself, literally psyching your core self up to push through your natural resistance to change. Focus on that which you know for certain is good in you and has been reasonably persistent about yourself. Then iterate around that, finding ways to enhance that core and build the boundary up to a higher level. Some techniques:
  • Continuing to embolden the unquestioned good parts of you (provides the backstop for the boundary “membrane”), this liberates energy. You up-regulate the positive.
  • Patch up, upgrade and thicken the boundary membrane, making it stronger, less permeable, and more discriminating/selective
  • Strip off from the self and pump out the remaining bad that is inside the boundary.
  • Allow new “good” in (more below)

The iteration starts with iron willpower because the iterative process is slow, tedious and solid results are not realized until things “bounce around” for a quite while. Initially, the incremental improvements on each iteration are tiny. Occasionally there is backtracking. Lots of energy is consumed for not much progress early on.

Unfortunately there are several “opposing forces” working against healthy change
  • Up-regulating the positive about yourself means ignoring the negatives – sort of an unbalanced view of your self. Focusing too much on the good can end up stretching the rubber band one way, only to have it snap back to the opposite - crashing and focusing too much on the bad aspects of yourself.
  • Upgrading and thickening the boundary too much moves towards a choking off from humanity. Too much human isolation is not at all good longer term.
  • Upgrading the boundary and making it more discriminating takes energy and investment up front for a payoff down the road.
  • To strip off from the self and pump out the bad you need to face it. Facing bad inside the self is highly unpleasant! However once found stripping it off and ejecting will feel better.
  • Pumping the bad out leaves a net void. Replacing that void with good takes yet additional time.
  • Change in general is always resisted.

Recall that you must learn about the mindset of your perpetrator to be effective in isolating the bad, stripping it off from the self, and ejecting it. This will likely take third party “triangulation” to help you isolate it within you. The “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” saying is appropriate here. Don’t awful-ize. You don’t want to “abandon” too much of yourself. Be ultra kind to your good parts!

Equilibrium

Continuing to follow the fluid cell analogy - for every bad part that you pump out you need to eventually replace it with “good”. Passing the bad out through the upgraded, thicker boundary membrane consumes time and energy. Selectively drawing new good in across that same thicker membrane also takes time and energy. For a while you are very much likely to be “net” down and diminished. You pump out the bad first, then, in the interim, prior to replacing it with good you experience shrinking. That’s a highly unpleasant sensation of giving up, dying, death, a loss of potency, a fading of life’s vitality…


Langley, Ryerson, and Woolf (1939) in the Wizard of Oz wrote:
[...the water hits the Witch in the face. The Witch screams as the water hits her -- Tin Man, Lion, Dorothy and Scarecrow look at her. The Lion, Tin Man, Dorothy and Scarecrow watch the Witch as she screams and melts away. The Witch curses as she disappears, finally only her cloak and hat remain on the floor…her voice fades away…]

WITCH

Ohhh -- you cursed brat! Look what you've
done! I'm melting! Melting! Oh -- what a
world -- what a world! Who would have
thought a good little girl like you could
destroy my beautiful wickedness!? Ohhh!
Look out! Look out! I'm going. Ohhhh!
Ohhhhhh...


Recognizing and pumping out the bad is like that melting. That part of you absolutely does not want to be diminished! It screams on the way out! You experience it like you are killing off a core part of yourself.

I speculate that bad must go first as the “cell” can’t get larger. It follows that there must be a diminishing in size prior to a drawing in a getting “inflated” back up to normal. Again following the cell analogy, the bad goes out from inside (where you are well familiar with it.) Yet the resultant void can’t be replaced by manufacturing that “in-house”. Instead the new good replacement must come in from outside the self and be introjected. That is, you must up regulate good by finding it initially outside yourself and bringing it in.

Thankfully you are free to “move around” and hopefully get yourself into a very nearly ideal environment so when it comes time to “draw in” the environment you are in is ideal (and nearly pure) for that, so you don’t have to spend a huge amount of energy filtering out high amounts of pollution to take in good nuggets.

Summary
  • Use intense knowledge of your abusers mindset (likely understood with third party “triangulation” assistance on what exactly was bad) to help identify, strip off from the self, and pump the bad out.
  • The pumping out is exhausting and diminishing. However you are then lighter to travel. And absent the “bad” you are welcomed into much more pure environments. Before you would be prohibited from even entering those clearer waters based on holding in to all your “bad”.
  • Move your entire being to a very good, ultra pure environment (this travel itself will be iterative). Expect this move to involve: energy, search, testing, trial and error, etc. Since all change is unpleasant this will be no different. You are on a search to an more pure environment that will help support you becoming more “the person you have always wanted to be”.
  • Expect to feel impoverished for a significant time after stripping off bad from the self and pumping it out, and expending the energy to relocate to a new, more pure environment for fresh input. This will likely be the low point, the bottom of the your recover curve. It would be pretty normal to feel some significant depression and exhaustion. But, hang in!
  • Start sucking in the good stuff to enrich your core, internalize and integrate that in. It takes time to accept and fully process new things. Only through bits of real success (and the resulting “expanded” feeling) will it become reinforced. Celebrate all steps in the right direction that are actually taken even if initially they are only tiny steps. In total this entire phase will be very uplifting. But it will be slow at first.
  • The entire process will take time, direction, willpower, and significant energy.
  • There likely is a significant “down”, acclimating to the loss (“adjusting to the new normal”) before starting an assent, and feeling good that up progress is being made.
I am not a professional therapist. My postings here are provided for general informational purposes only and are not intended as, nor should it be considered a substitute for, professional medical or psychological advice. See: site Disclaimer and Notes
wisdom
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:35 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: HPD with incest

Postby wisdom » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:04 pm

Alice,

My last post is not responsive to your most current one. It's loosely but not directly related. In reading through your quick, first cut response to my second-to-the-last post I seem to sense a lot of projection from you out to your mates?

Spent some time struggling and pondering with what is pathological about the need for "the fan club" when you have found the perfect mate and they are, at least initially, all fulfilling. The need to worship the mate #1, yet concurrent with that, to covertly invest massively in the fan club.

To promote adoring fan club members you need to allocate time with them, and discuss the black parts of your #1, on the run, relationship. To attract new fan club members you must invest and solicit their attention. To keep those in inventory interested and in pursuit you focus on the "black" about #1. You end up at least emotionally cheating on #1 with the fan club members to maintain intimacy and desire on their part. As a result of your investment and focus on your relationships with various fan club members that must produce and reinforce in you doubts about your primary relationship.

Part of you then becomes hypervigilent as to what's wrong in the primary relationship both when you are with your #1 and when you are rehashing his negatives multiple times, one on one, with potentially adoring fan club members. When you are with #1 any little thing about him that is non-affirming to you may be blown out of proportion. That dynamic might serve to service your deeper need to "prove its true", "to prove you were right" and ultimately to assuage your own deeper guilt over you not being all adoring (not being perfect and in a sense being bad) for all the "backfield" cheating on #1?

Then it would not really be your mates self doubt / insecurities that brings down the house? They have object persistence. You might flip from white to black and torch the relationship?

Was hoping you might reflect back much more to YOUR dad/brother/mom relationship dynamics that may have persisted; how those relationships sent echos forward. And how your relationship and interaction patterns with your mates might reflect those echos (i.e. more tracing back, thinking about it, noting patterns, and less "this is how an HPD mind works" in the present) Interested in how the past footprints patterns may be found in later romantic attachments relations after that. The incest abuse and morbid jealousy factors in particular seem ripe but I don't want to lead you if I'm off base. My antenna were very up that "Dad wanted a boy" / "bonded with my brother" type stuff seemed very relevant.

Nothing urgent here (I have lots of other stuff that I must attend to shortly and this fall is "booked" up solid, so absolutely no rush for a response. Can only visit the forum on erratic brief occasions going forward so there is no rush. Am very thankful for what you have contributed - all good! Just a nagging suspicion there is even more, perhaps very rich content, lurking just a tad bit under the surface here. It also plays into Beth's analytical interpretation - "you introjected parts of your brother".
I am not a professional therapist. My postings here are provided for general informational purposes only and are not intended as, nor should it be considered a substitute for, professional medical or psychological advice. See: site Disclaimer and Notes
wisdom
Consumer 6
Consumer 6
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:35 pm
Local time: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:33 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to Histrionic Personality Disorder Forum




  • Related articles
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 61 guests

cron