wisdom wrote:I have great respect for guys like RealityCheque who attack the problem from the brain itself. The physical brain is made up of lots of regions, with lots of interconnection. If you start with the coordinates of some physical spot in the brain they can tell you what happens if that area is damaged physically. With fMRI you also get very good, very specific physical information of what is activated. Its like taking a computer chip apart, putting it under the microscope, and finally getting down to what the circuits do. However we have to remember there is still human development, including how the brain physically develops over childhood, and how its programmed, and reprogrammed chemically and physically over time.
Yes, most certainly.
Wisdom wrote:This is a very tricky area! Incest abuse, including psychological incest is a very odd blend
You're right, this is a very tricky area and a tender subject for some as well.
I find that I'm good at keeping myself detatched from what happened as long as I don't have to remember details or try to 'open the box' to the abuse itself. I just want you to know that I'm OK talking about this, and if it gets to be too much, I have learned since the last time we were opening my boxes how to pull back, and ultimately keep myself safe.
Wisdom wrote:Love & Caring – The perpetrator is very close to the to the victim. They are also together "inside the castle". There is generally long term close proximity. In most cases there is also substantial intimacy between the pair on some legitimate level.
Yes, this is so true in my case. Aside from what happened, he was an ideal brother. I remember that he was fun to play with. I looked up to him, idealized him, pretty much worshiped him as most little sisters do with their older brothers as the protectors. He treated me well. My mother said there was never any jealousy or crulety between us- some bickering, but nothing outside of the 'norm' he loved me in all aspects; which is why when everyone finally found out what happened they were utterly shocked, and I think mom and dad felt violated by him as well...
We took care of each other. After he would be punished I would sneak into his room and try and sooth him. That time when I bit my dads leg, I was only thinking of my brother and wanting to make it stop because I loved and cared for him so much. We were tightly bonded by both our love and the familial abuse.
Wisdom wrote:Co-Dependency – This in not obvious until you look deeply. The perpetrator and victim are oddly co-dependent. Its easy to spot that the child must have support, safety and love. What’s not immediately obvious is the perpetrator is likewise deeply dependent and perhaps can even be considered addicted to what that child supplies. What the perpetrator seeks is not readily available elsewhere.
This is also so true. I needed his love and support. The way my father was to me in emotional my abuse and my brothers physical abuse, placed a great barrier between us in my forming a proper bond to my dad. I see that now after looking into my life for the past year... Where the love, nurturing and support of a father should have been- I had placed my older brother instead because he was all those things, and my dad wasn't. My father wasn't 'all bad' we did have some good times and I do have some fond memories of him from my childhood; but they are few and far between, and greatly over shadowed by the negatives- my brother though (to me) was 'all good' and filled the void of what I didn't have with my father.
My brother was also dependant on my love and support because it was unconditional.
Surrounding the abuse, where you said "it's not readily available
" that's also true and I think what sparked it the first time it happened.
As far as I know, there had never been anything inapropriate up until that time. No touches, looks, indications or tests of any kind. The first night it happened we were watching a movie together, "The Howlling" (a movie about wearwolves), it was of course inapropriate for me at my age as it was very graphic and sexual; but my brother being the cool older brother he was, allowed me to stay up and watch it with him.
At one point during the movie, when the humans were changing into their wolf form, it became very sexual. I remember a lot of nudity and a back ground of writhing bodies on a bunch of rocks in the back ground... That's when he told me to go to bed.
I don't know how long it was after he sent me upstairs that he came; but all of a sudden he was there.
Looking back on things I'm pretty sure that he was just getting arroused from watching the movie, and then (Because no one was there to staisfy his sexual arousal) he for some reason thought it was OK to use me for that purpose.
That was the first time. After that, just babysitting me and having me in bed was enough to trigger him to come in. I don't remember anything about what happened before the following ocassions he came in; but I believe (and feel) that they were 'normal' days/evenings up until that point were he came into my room.
So yes, he had become addicted to what I 'provided' to him in a way because there was nothing substancial to trigger the following times, except the fact that we were alone and I was in bed.
I'm not sure, but I think (and I suppose I could be right) that the scene from that movie being what sparked this happenning, and the fact that it was so animalistic right before my first 'sexual experience' could account for at least part of my paraphillic compulsions. It was violent, it was animal, it was carnal, it was domineering, it was a group thing, it was outside... In short it was an animalistic, orgy of pure lust and that's very much what my sexuality is like as an adult.
I could go further in depth here into how that ties in, but I'll leave it there and just say that my sexuality is very carnal, and when I'm aroused I take on the role of a huntress/preditor in nature and demenor... Interesting...
Wisdom wrote:Electric Charge! - The actual violation of boundaries takes place in a very emotionally charged environment - either under strong incestuous/inappropriate romantic style love bonding and -or- under possibly under horrendous physical pain and abuse - in either case, the strength of the emotional "charge" between the pair is undeniably there.
This I have a hard time accessing; but it was very emotional for me. I was internally panicked, and that whole 'fight or flight' feeling came in to me. I was afraid and I didn't know what to do, where to run- so I ran with my mind and tried to block it out (sensations and all) as best I could.
I can't safely access enough of the memory at this point to see what his response/reactions were. My mind doesn't work like that. In order to remember something I have to open it so completely it takes me back there in mind, feeling, and panic- it's like I'm reliving the event all over again.
But I would imagine that like any sexual offender he would have been experiencing a combination of arousal, fear, perversion, taboo, and even a more hightened sexual experience purely because what he was doing was so 'wrong' and that (in the mind of a deviant) makes it feel 'so good'- even better than just sex itself. Sex times 10, and I only understand this because that's how I feel when I do something 'so wrong' that just feels 'so good' simply because it's so very, very wrong.
Wisdome wrote:Electric Discharge! – one or both of the pair end up discharging intense orgasms. It’s often said that a young child simply can’t process that much pleasure appropriately, it’s just too much. The adult also gets the huge neurochemical hit from it. Otherwise, why take the risk?
I don't remember his discharge, and that would be way too hard for me to do; but I remember mine. It wasn't an orgasm, but the reliefe of it being 'OVER
' was a great emotional discharge
in and of itself.
Having being sexually assulted a number of times, I can honestly say that when it's over there is always that kind of tension release as you come back into yourself and realize you're safe.
I don't believe I ever orgasmed while being raped- I certainly don't remember that ever happening, even as I got older. But the releiving of the stress and tension when it's done is a great emotional expulsion
and feels very good indeed.
Perhaps this could be why I use sex to deal with stress, tension, rage, anger, and other infused emotions?
Maybe because I know that when it's over I'll feel good, relaxed, relieved and at peace inside myself?
Hard to say; but it's an interesting observation...
Wisdom wrote:Abuse - The adult crossed the line, lacked sufficient awareness, education, or self constraint . They went ahead and violated the emotional and/or physical defenses of the child
Trauma Bonds - the above “cocktail” leaves to very enduring trauma bonds
Trauma Bonds- I had to look this up and see what the term specifically entails (I'm a geek like that
) and I found this: http://www.kyros.org/PDF's/Trauma%20Bonds.pdf
as a short/simple explanation and I can answer these things accordingly:TRAUMA BONDS STRENGTHEN WHEN . . .
1. trauma cycles are repeated
yes2. the victim believes in his or her uniqueness
I'm not sure if thats' true in this case or not3. the victim mistakes intensity for intimacy
again, I'm not sure4. the trauma endures over time
yes5. there are increasing amounts of fear
yes6. the fear-induced neurochemical reactions occur earlier in life and affect the organic development of the brain
I would think yes, the trauma of fathers beating him induced a great fear in me at a very young age, and also what supposedly happened when I was 5, would havebeen fearful as well...7. the trauma is preceded by earlier victimization
again, yes- violence and possible previous sexual abuse could have been factor here8. the victim is surrounded by reactivity and extreme responses
the only reactivity i remember was me running inside my mind, so I'm not sure if that would classify here as an extreme response or not...9. the betrayal of power relationships is greater
yes, he was my older brother and my idol- he had a power of me emotionally and with his stature of being the older sibling as well.10. the betrayal of trusted relationships is greater
yes, I trusted him absolutely and utterly!
One of the things I must say is that what my brother did to me wasn't brutal in action; but what he did was so traumatic (I think) because of who he was and what he had become to me:
- a replacement for an insufficient father
- unconditional love, acceptance, and protection
- the previous traumas which tied us to each other
- and because he had been encarserated so many times, and for such long periods of time between our younger years (growing up together full time), and the time which this actually happened, I think the years I spent longing for him, missing him, wishing for him to return and be in my life (because he was gone so much) had taken all the above factors and strengthened them all the more. I think the intensity in which I loved him and needed him, pined for him and prayed for him to come home to me, made these fuses of overformed affection all the deeper inside me.
I can't even begin to explain the way I wanted him home; but that was my greatest wish for many years, even after the assults...
Wisdom wrote:In terms of why BPDers evolve placid or active, I don't really have an cue. Why one victim chooses to "suck it up" and then later overflows with horrible emotional outbursts, while another chooses to switch roles and become the aggressor, despite hating their, seems almost a coin toss. The more I look at it however the more I'm convinced during early childhood a trauma bond forms - that bond is between perpetrator and victim and what sticks in the mind of the victim is very much what happened to them, and the electric emotions surrounding that. What sticks in there is clearly a footprint left behind from the perpetrator’s mindset.
I think you could be right here. Sex is a HUGE issue for me. I'm abnormally hyper sexual, and my sexuality is greatly entangled into many others areas, aside from sex.
A lot of people hate the fact that i'm so sexual; but there's reasons for that, and I truly think this is the reason for that.
Granted there are many other factors that came to my developing a personality disorder; but what happened here with my brother was undoubtedly one of the most deeply impacting circumstances in my life! Anything done before that time, was amplified by this. Every thing that happened since that time, was fused with the trauma of this.
That foot print was large, like a yetti wearing army boots- it stamped in my heart and my psyche with the greatest pressure on earth and forever changed me as a person.
Wisdom wrote:Of course the child has only some DNA from their incest perpetrator. Some inborn traits and predispositions will be different. From the abuse point(s) forward there are unique life experiences and the resulting personality forms on top of all that. To get rid of the abuse footprint I'm convinced you need to know a great deal about the mindset of the perpetrator, and pretty much exactly how they were deviant. At that point teasing the deviance out is possible, but still tricky and protracted.
My brother and I share no genetics, as we're both adopted from different families; but aside from DNA- we were very deeply bonded in our love and need for one and other.
In regards to knowing as much as possible about the mindset of the perpitrator, would that entail studying his personality structure and his psychology to better understand how a typical construct of his deficite functions and is formed? Knowing him personally and trying to understand him? Or observing my likeness to him, and better understanding where 'he' lies within myself
The thing about my brother is that I don't know much about him as a person. We spent so little time together... All of the consistant/longer time we had together I was just so young that I have only fleeting memories and general feeling of loving him in that place/time. So essentially I really don't know him
much at all.
Wisdom wrote:I'm finding when youth (and adults) experience strong, electric emotions they really stick. There is unquestioningly tons of activation around sex, around physical abuse, around fear, etc. Years later, from that early experience we can ask what causes some real heart pounding activation again that seems to have such a clear effect on actual behavior? Well let’s see, the fear of a rival taking my mate away, the thrill of exposing myself, and the ultimate fear I can create for myself - reenacting my childhood abuse through my partner.
Strong electric emotions are the only ones I ever cling to, and they pretty much pattern themselves throughout the course of my life.
Intense highs consisting of love relationships, feirce sexual experiences, impulsive and reclessness behaviours, high impact, high adrenalin, highly stimulating activities are all over my life in varried ways.
Extreme emotional struggles such as abuses including sexual abuses, more 'brutal' rapes, physical abuses/assualts, emotional abuses/tourment, suicidal compulsions, drug abuse and a great many other negative things in my life are always closely on the heels of any previous 'high' and just as intense, if not moreso...
It almost seems as if these are the only things I remember. Either really 'good'/fun/exciting times, or the really 'bad'/traumatic/horrendous times- the in between times/'normal' times are all missing in my life... Just something I've noticed while trying to fill the gaps in my missing memories and stuff.
Maybe that's why we seek such thrills. Not only because they are high impact in the moment, but they last longer in our memories as well...and the ultimate fear I can create for myself - reenacting my childhood abuse through my partner.This speaks to me in a few ways:On one hand I love to be the abuser
. I get excited at others emotional tourment and destruction. I get sexually aroused in my rages and violence towards them. I feel powerful and in control when I have someone crumblling and crying at my feet. I get off on having that power over them, and having their own spirit within my clutches- it's within my ability to pulverise them or to show mercy, and souly at my discretion and for my own benefit. Destruction and chaos is highly stimulating for me in this way. I feel indestructable and in total control. The more I break someone the more I own them from the inside out. The weaker they become and the more I can affect them, seep into them and destroy them. That pleases me very much. It's a great feeling to have so much power over someones life. In that way I'm very much the aggressor, the abuser and the power within the exchange.On the other hand though I will also allow myself to be abused
. Only by someone I love intimately, and if I don't love someone and they abuse me- I go on the defensive and fly off the handle. Granted I will do the same thing to someone I love; if I find their abuse to be too much. Things like cheating, neglecting me, angering me, putting me down, challenging me, or making me 'unworthy' in some way, will send me into utter destructive mode and I will usually snap. But I will also take their abuses for a considerable time before this happens becauseI love them and I want them to love me in return.
I will lower myself to them, idolize them and treat them increadably well. I become submissive to them in a way, and even if they cheat on me- I'll fly off the handle and forgive them, always giving them 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chances, etc... That's what I mean when I always say they can do no worng. Even if they do wrong, it never lasts- I always forgive them and welcome them back.
This could possibly be because of the way I was with my brother- wanting him to love me despite the way he hurt me. I'm not sure, but it definitely carries the pattern of love infused with abuse in to my adult years...
Every critism they lay on to me (even indirectly) I take inside me the way I did with my fathers words/actions/attitudes/etc...
No matter what they do/don't do, I always forgive them and forget all about it, loving them completely- until it happens again. Just like with my brother... Chance after chance... I lay myself down at their feet in the hopes that they'll treat me better 'this time' but it never happens- it always gets worse, and I end up hurting them all the more because it hurts me more each time I trust them.
I just want them to love me; but they keep abusing me- just like my brother...
It's almost as if I'm reliving the desperation of keeping the one I love a part of me, close to me, forgiving everything and anything, just to keep them with me.
It's abusive and destructive.
I do it to myself because I always go back to them. In this way, I very much love to be abused.Degridation and humilation are ememse turn ons for me
. Both to inflict these things on others (people who are sexual objects used for my pleasure) and to endure them (from those I am in love with, submit to, want them to be able to control me, etc..). To see or to be used and abused in a sexual way is highly charged for me- just what I like, and my favorite form of sexuality. Violence is definitely sexualized for me, as is rage and aggressions; but degridation and the breaking of the inner spirit is where I get the most excitement and power of all my sexual practices/manipulations/abuses of others. That to me is like a drug. An addiction, and something I constantly crave. To be abused or abuse another to my will is truly the ultimate sexual experience for me, and I'm sure it greatly ties into this whole thing with my brother.Perversity and taboo
. It seems that at times, the more off wall something is- the more I like it. I of course don't want to be too explicit here; but suffid to say that I'm into some wierd things that are not of the 'norm'.
Some of these things I can clearly see as being directly as a result of what happened with my brother specifically. Some of these things I see as stemming from the broken relationship with my father (daddy/daughter roll play is my ideal sexual dynamic with someone I love/place above me), so I do see some of these things tied into my youth very much in deed.
There are some others though that I still wonder about.
Many of them are tied into the degritation factor though.
Either that or they're just so off the wall that I can't help but be excited by them chemically- I'm not sure...
In many ways I think I'm just addicted to the 'rush' these strange things bring because of that whole, "it's so wrong but that makes it feel so right" element. Perhaps, as you sujested, merely a reenactment of my brothers mentality
as he was doing what he did???
It's funny, because as I look at these things and examine them, I can see so many places in my life where they have indeed played a massive roll in my actions, choices and menatality.
I wanna thank you Wisdom for helping me to see these things within myself and my life right now.
I'm currently preparing myself for another court case wherein I'm making a case specifically geared towards the results of the trauma I suffered from my brother, so that I can receive assistance through a victim program to help me pay for my therapy costs, etc...
They also give an 'award' for emotional/psychological suffering and personal loss/damages
How do you put a price on something that affected you so greatly?
Where do you even begin to describe and detail the amount of recovery for a life lost due to such great inner trauma, suffered as a young child?
How do you make up for the legal 'punishment' he received?
(7 months encarseration for destroying my life and raping my mind- let alone my body
That part of the case/appeal/whatever you wanna call it- I'm almost afraid to do.
I'm afraid to see what 'value' they'll place on my trauma and my life.
Que serra, serra, and I suppose it doesn't matter anyways- right?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco
Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves