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Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby ajr8 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:13 pm

I'm glad we were able to answer your questions Alice. I honestly can't tell if I've ever met a gay man with a personality disorder, I would guess I haven't. Everything about HPD is accepted as a norm in gay culture so if it's in step with a subculture, there is no personality disorder to speak of. But I know for sure I often meet gay men who most people would find shockingly histrionic, every single time I go to any of the gay bars around here, there will always be tons of guys like that. And it's true, they can be very draining, but since my hobby at gay bars is watching people, I honestly don't mind it at all, it makes for entertainment. It's interacting with them for long periods of time that can cause me to feel annoyed. It's very possible that boring conventional minded doctors might think people like that are histrionic, but then again homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness until the 1970s.
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby AliceWonders » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:31 pm

Thanks AJ :D

I really do feel that it's more of a culture thing (on a large scale) while there could very well be some true HPD's in the mix as well, as with every social/culture cluster of people.

Personally I think it's absolutely retarded that homosexuality was ever considered a mental illness at all. :roll:

How do you find your bisexuality viewed with the gay 'culture'?
(if you don't mind me asking)

I'm curious about that in a male perspective because a bi female I usually find that most Lez girls are highly prejduice against bi women. For example I dated a woman, a few years ago, and she was Lez. All her friends were Lez, and were always trying to 'warn her' against dating a bi girl. It was difficult for her to continually justify our relationship to her friends, and having them disaprove of me was very hurtful as well...

Are you purely bisexual (sex with both) or are you bi lovable (relationships with both) like me?

I find that while my sexual aggressions and carnal drives are more geared towards men; women hold a different place for me. I treat them very tenderly, and want to protect them; would never hurt them, nore want to. Do have the same kind of diffirences in your impressions of the sexes as another bisexual?

Sorry- kinda odd questions I'm asking here :oops: you're just the first bi HPD I've met (that I know of) and I'm curious if we share these similarities at all.

Thanks
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby ajr8 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:33 pm

I prefer women and around straight or bi women I act more masculine and I usually date and have sex with women. Also I get along with women much more easily than men, but usually most of my male friends are bi. I have had sex with gay men but haven't exactly dated them ever, they come across usually as friends with benefits. I'm considered out of the ordinary to people who are strictly gay, at least men. Lesbians like me just fine, my best female friends are all either lesbian or bi, and I date bi women a lot.

My bisexuality to gay people makes me slightly an outsider so I tend to be more friendly with guys who are bi rather than gay. Only really stuck up gay guys care but even they don't give me a really hard time about it. It feels like bisexuality is a specific preference type so I connect with bi people more, both as friends and lovers. But my mental illnesses stand out to whoever I'm with, most people I know don't have any signs of having a personality disorder, so I know that makes me even more of an outsider.
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby santa fe » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:56 pm

According to most estimates about ten percent of the population is gay. The stereotypical flaming and effeminate gay types seem to be rare in society overall. I would guess that less than ten percent of gay men (or fewer) are overtly effeminate, and fewer still are of the flaming, attention-seeking type. The numbers may far different in concentrated gay communities though.

As a young boy I had a friend in the neighborhood who was obviously effeminate. He was nice and at our age we had not developed any prejudices. We knew queer was a derogatory term but didn't know what it meant. So, several of the kids tried to help him learn to catch and throw a baseball but it was hopeless–– he threw like a girl, pushing the ball with his elbow rather than slinging it with his arm. He would hold his arms up and cover his head when we threw the ball to him. He had an older sister and played with her Barbie dolls and used girlish language and expressions. He moved away and I never saw him again... until about ten or twelve years later. On my first day at college, after checking into the dorm, I was being introduced to people on my floor. We knocked on a door, a voice said come in, we walked in and there he was, lying in the bed with another guy. Talk about a surprise! He was even more effeminate than as a child but did not exhibit flaming or attention-seeking behaviors.

So based on this experience I think that some of the effeminate types are simply being who they have always been. Some may exaggerate it when it suits their purpose but it's fundamentally the way they were born.

I think the ones who would be considered the flaming, attention-seeking types are probably assuming an identity, playing a role, joining a club by consciously adopting these behaviors, and that their fundamental issue is failure to develop a strong sense of identity from within, therefore they adopt one externally. No different really from others who take on stereotypical, superficial identities in order to be considered a member of a group (goths, hippies, cheerleaders, urban cowboys, gangbangers, rappers, etc.) Belonging to a group is a very strong and fundamental human need.

I don't think this necessarily has anything to do with PDs.
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby ajr8 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:05 pm

I don't think most gay people have PDs, but I know people would assume they do based on the accepted behaviors in the subculture. I never knew feminine guys as a kid, I only started meeting them when I grew up. I agree that very few men, even gay men, act overly feminine but you'd never know this if you were in an all gay community. Plenty of them act more feminine than women, making them seem histrionic, even when they are not. And boy are they theatrical! And I thought I acted too emotional, I'm cold as ice compared to some of the guys I've met. For all I know they could have always been like that or they could have just assumed that identity once they matured and developed their sexuality. HPD seems like a negative stereotype of overly feminine characteristics so it's no mystery why some would label certain men histrionic, whether they are or not.
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby AliceWonders » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:44 am

ajrocker8 wrote:I prefer women and around straight or bi women I act more masculine and I usually date and have sex with women. Also I get along with women much more easily than men, but usually most of my male friends are bi. I have had sex with gay men but haven't exactly dated them ever, they come across usually as friends with benefits. I'm considered out of the ordinary to people who are strictly gay, at least men. Lesbians like me just fine, my best female friends are all either lesbian or bi, and I date bi women a lot.

My bisexuality to gay people makes me slightly an outsider so I tend to be more friendly with guys who are bi rather than gay. Only really stuck up gay guys care but even they don't give me a really hard time about it. It feels like bisexuality is a specific preference type so I connect with bi people more, both as friends and lovers. But my mental illnesses stand out to whoever I'm with, most people I know don't have any signs of having a personality disorder, so I know that makes me even more of an outsider.


AJ,

What you said sounds familiar to me in so many ways. I get along much better with men and bi women, then hetero females and Lez girls. The prejudice of Lez girls is because I'm bi and they see that as a joke rather than any kind of truth, hetero women (when they know I am bi) see me as someone who's gonna try and convert them/hit on them :roll: or as a slut who just wants to have sex with anyone and everyone I possibly can & that's so NOT the case! (I openly admit to being very sexual; but I'm also VERY selective in who I choose)

Do you find that hetero men are the same towards you? Afraid you'll hit on them just because you're into guys n stuff? (which is truely pathetic :roll: )

But where you say you seem to be more masculine with the oposite sex I'm the oposit because I too tend to be more 'masculine' towards BOTH sexes indiscriminantly. My 'gender role/persona' doesn't change...

While I'll use the girly game and the damsel in distress to manipulate someone in a heart beat- I don't do that with just 'the guys' that I have/had as friends. I'm always just 'one of the guys' and they've said this to me many times before too- so I'm not delussional or making this up. I'm very guy like in my 'natural state' (non manipulative personification) to the point where guys who find me attractive at first, no longer have a romantic interest in me because we become friends, and again, they say I'm more like one of the guys.

I've always been like that. Even since early childhood. Very few female friends (if any) and more comfortable being with guys and just being one of them... Odd... (sorry, just something I never really thought about before until now)

So while I defintely understand you having more feminine traits (as I have more masculine than feminine myself) I don't see why that changes between the sexes as you go between males and females. Do you think you put on the manliness to appear more manly (like to try to do this on purpose/consciously) or is it something that just happens and you don't really realize you're even doing it until looking back on it?
Just curious- is all...

I also find it interesting that you've not had a relationship with a guy- just sex.
Is that just because you've never been emotionally drawn in by a male, or because you just draw the line at the sexual pleasure of male interaction?
Again, just curious...

I've had relationships with women (very rarely) in the past. A girl when I was high school (didn't last long), another girl after I left my Husband (lasted a few months) and one online scenario where I was falling in love with a woman in one of my social groups and I had to actually stop talking to her and participating in the group because I was having a hard time with my feelings for HER. She lives in Colorado, I'm in Toronto, and she's married (also bi) so it was pure torture to know I wanted and cared for this woman I would never have... Long story :roll: But I've also been emotionally drawn into other women at other times as well- not just sex; hence why I'm curious about why you've not yet (may never) had these kinds of emotional laces pulling at your heart.

I find it interesting that Lez's like you but gay guys don't. I find that Lez girls usually despise me, and so do many gay guys- though not all; but then again- I do have that effect on most people despite sexuality, culture, mental illness, social status, etc, etc, etc, :lol: so I guessit's really not that suprising :wink:

I do find that I connect better with those who are bi sexual though, and perhaps it is just an understanding thing- like mental illness. I seem to get along with people who are like me, than those who are not. Which I think is pretty typical in bonding in friendships.
(sorry just thinking while I type here)

santa fe wrote:No different really from others who take on stereotypical, superficial identities in order to be considered a member of a group (goths, hippies, cheerleaders, urban cowboys, gangbangers, rappers, etc.) Belonging to a group is a very strong and fundamental human need.


That was very much the point I was trying to make earlier- that's it a culture thing (widely expressed) and so those who wish to be a part of that culture will take on the persona which depicts what they are trying to identify with.

I wonder then, if some of the more 'flamming gay' are so extreme in their flambioancies because they are over compensating? Like, anyone who's in the Gay.Bi. Lez, TG/TS community knows that there posers- right? Those who pretend to be what they're truely not inorder to get out of their true sexuality's rat race, fit in somewhere/anywhere they can, just dabblinga bit :lol: etc... And it kinda makes me wonder if some of these people are over projecting what they think they should be like due to trying to fit in where they want be to excepted for the moment... Certainly not true in all cases; but a few perhaps? Just a thought...

ajrocker8 wrote:HPD seems like a negative stereotype of overly feminine characteristics so it's no mystery why some would label certain men histrionic, whether they are or not.

This is so true, and so many people come here saying they know this n' that person MUST be histrionic 'because' and all that jazz. What people don't stop to think about is the DISORDER part. That just because they may exhibit certain traits, or similarities to what the DSM describes as HPD, it doesn't mean that they have an actual disorder (again, I did not say ALL cases) and many of these people could just be like these men we're discussing- projecting histrionism without actually being in any way DISORDERED.

Clearly many gay males project the 'image' of a histrionic; but with out it being a life effecting thing, LONG TERM & life effecting thing; that is both developed & supported by trauama/conditioning/other factors in childhood, it's only a superficial play. They are acting this way because they enjoy it- not because they know no other alternative!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby connector122001 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:58 am

ajrocker8 wrote:I'm glad we were able to answer your questions Alice. I honestly can't tell if I've ever met a gay man with a personality disorder, I would guess I haven't. Everything about HPD is accepted as a norm in gay culture so if it's in step with a subculture, there is no personality disorder to speak of. But I know for sure I often meet gay men who most people would find shockingly histrionic, every single time I go to any of the gay bars around here, there will always be tons of guys like that. And it's true, they can be very draining, but since my hobby at gay bars is watching people, I honestly don't mind it at all, it makes for entertainment. It's interacting with them for long periods of time that can cause me to feel annoyed. It's very possible that boring conventional minded doctors might think people like that are histrionic, but then again homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness until the 1970s.


The only gay men I've met with a personality disorder were in treatment with me at an eating disorder clinic. It seems that a larger percentage of men with eating disorders have a personality disorder, usually Cluster B borderline, histrionic or narcissistic. Many of the men with eating disorders were also gay or bi. Most of the women with eating disorders also were borderline. It was a very dramatic and intense experience being around a group of people with personality disorders and quite stressful on my psyche. I learned a lot about myself though.

One histrionic girl acted like a baby the whole time, including voice affect and body language--and she was being serious. Another borderline/antisocial girl would steal other's medication and then try to trade it to you as if it were contraband in prison, lol. Another girl with borderline was downright spiteful of others and made the nastiest comments about them. I did make one good friend, a gay guy who said he had borderline but was actually extremely sweet and caring--never manipulative and always supportive of people's struggles. That was three years ago, and we're still friends. This is remarkable as I find it very difficult to make friends and always have.
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby ajr8 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:36 am

To Alice, yes heterosexual men, if they know I'm bi, either try to make me feel ashamed for it or they find it creepy. But my closest male friends who are straight know me well and they are open minded enough, they don't care at all. But I usually don't tell straight men anyway, but they seem to hate me on sight because of my emotional expressiveness so maybe they figure it our right away, I can't tell for sure.

I think with straight girlfriends I take on the role of being a more masculine man. But with bi or lesbian girls, which comprise the majority of my closest remaining friends, I can be any way I want and they accept it. My best friend right now is a lesbian and she is very cute but very masculine in personality and around her I tend to act very flamboyant but we are very honest with each other and we've seen every aspect of each others' personalities. We also love to obsess over hot women together.

I have felt romantic feelings for guys in the past, but many of them turned out to be straight. There is a gay guy I'm friends with who has been obsessed with me since high school. He was easy to get in bed but we never clicked as a couple and he's kind of ditsy and just not for me romantically, but he's still fun to be around.

Anyway, I connect with women of all orientations much better than men so it's just natural for me to feel romantically for them. As for people I've met with personality disorders, all were women and all were borderline, and I've had sex with every single one of them and dated them all at least briefly. I hate to say it but with my personality and how manipulative I am, women like that just make easy targets when you're interested in getting laid. When I was at the hospital I was probably the only ASPD person there. Everyone else was either suicidal or psychotic, and it was very difficult for me not to laugh at them all. I was forced into the hospital when my doctor and my family determined I was posing a danger to others so I had to go there for two weeks. I don't think anyone else there was gay or bi but since I felt all the suicidal women there were hotties, I was basically in straight mode there and I ended up dating one of them once we were released.
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby xdude » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:56 am

As a total side point, I found it interesting that HPD woman in life, like myself, also couldn't care less who is straight/gay, but found the theatrics and attention seeking behaviors amusing at first, then exhausting. I remember her commenting that the theatrical behavior and attention seeking was a sign of low self-worth.

While I can understand how a suppressed group would need to over correct as a way of coping with suppression, I found it interesting how she could perceive that the need to draw attention to oneself can be a sign of someone who is compensating for something on some level, while remaining oblivious to her own need to be the center of attention.

Then again I guess our brains are not equipped with a mirror. Learning to see ourselves as others do takes time and an intentional effort.
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Re: Are the traditional "*** hags" or "fruit flies" HPDs?

Postby AliceWonders » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:20 pm

xdude wrote:As a total side point, I found it interesting that HPD woman in life, like myself, also couldn't care less who is straight/gay, but found the theatrics and attention seeking behaviors amusing at first, then exhausting. I remember her commenting that the theatrical behavior and attention seeking was a sign of low self-worth.

While I can understand how a suppressed group would need to over correct as a way of coping with suppression, I found it interesting how she could perceive that the need to draw attention to oneself can be a sign of someone who is compensating for something on some level, while remaining oblivious to her own need to be the center of attention.

Then again I guess our brains are not equipped with a mirror. Learning to see ourselves as others do takes time and an intentional effort.


This reminds me very much of Gene Simmons- have seen any of you seen the new 'Family Jewels' episodes lately, where he's in therapy?

The one that just aired on A&E last night revealed that his craving for power, attention seeking (needing to be the center of attention), his womanizing and his over inflated ego are infact masks and behviours he uses to compensate for a very weak ego, and deep feelings of insecurity.

What's interesting is that he wasn't consciously aware that he was doing this until his life fell apart and he began going to therapy. Only when he was honestly questioned about himself and encouraged to look inside for the truth behind his outer projections/behaviours could he even begin to see that he was compensating; that what he was doing was truely destructive to his partner (Shannon), his children, and ultimately to himself.

I'm not saying that he's HPD (not saying he isn't either) but it's a perfect example of how we as PD's often live in our delussional bubble unaware of what we're doing/how it effects others because
a) the world revolves around us, and we are always the focus.
b) we don't allow for the truth of our own inner weakness/how we compensate to be agknowledged to ourselves in any way because we can not face it on a deeper level.
c) it's just become such a 'normal' way of thinking, being, feeling, living that we have no need to question it until something major happens and we're forced to look inside- all other options have finally been exahusted.

Just wanted to throw that in there as an add on to Dude's last statement, "Learning to see ourselves as others do takes time and an intentional effort."
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth~Oscar Wilde

Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together~Eugene Ionesco

Once you chose hope anything is possible~ Christopher Reeves
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