Projective Identification

Hi, After a bad experience with a NPD girl 6 years ago and a lesser but still bad experience with an hpd girl a few months ago (psyche still f*****d up)....I've been reading and re-reading books and coming to forums like this and various internet pages etc. I am very interested in the theory of Projective Identification & Countertransference....Hopefully I haven't misread the articles, but from what I read when PI or CT occurs (usually in a therapeutic environment) it can leave the psychologist with issues formerly belonging to the NPD HPD (as though the NPD HPD has brushed his ickyness off onto the psychologist) and I'm wondering if that's a lot of the reason why we sensitive others feel so bad as we're constantly absorbing the messud up persona of the PD...Just a thought.

Mako 7

I haven't read the articles, but I can see what you're saying. Like it or not, people in general rub off on one another. Ever sat next to a miserable person on the bus? Yeah, unless you're extra resilient, you're not gonna leave that bus all too happy. And you risk passing on the misery, even though you may not even realize it.

Some (not all) NPDs and HPDs can be quite charming and manipulative. So those types would probably have a higher chance of "temporarily infecting" or rubbing off onto a person with whom they spend a lot of time. Psychologists are not immune. Actually, shrinks are probably in need of their own therapists than most other people...second only to clergymen. (No offense to clergymen, but come on--all those confessions...)

Just my layman's analysis and 2 copper.

--Frayed

Hi Mako7. Although I am not a fully registered psych, I can offer you just a little info (and only speaking from my training at my particular university and experiences). Psychologists are def not immune to influences (they are human), however much of my training held a strong foci on knowing and understanding my own issues, where they have come from, how they inform me, my headspace and my view. In short, introspection is a must. Having said that, we are all complex and multifaceted human beings so it is not always possible to know what may trigger us and what may lead to an unexpected self revelation or new understanding. As Frayed noted, psychologists are encouraged to engage in therapy themselves and usually have a supervisor or colleagues to unload/self explore/develope and encourage self understanding and insight with. Psych's are also well informed re PI, CT and other dynamics within their choosen career setting so whilst this doesnt eliminate all by effects, knowledge does give an advantage that you dont have when unsuspectedly entering a rel with a PD! Psych's are also trained (and become experienced) with tools of assessment which extend beyond the use of clinical assessment tests (just one eg- congruency bwn verbal and non verbal).
I guess the big diff with a rel with a PD is that you're not looking thru that particular lens, you're looking thru an intimate, personal lens and are totally unsuspecting that there may be underlying psych probs going on below their well practiced exterior. Normal tho, yeah? WHO enters a relationship expecting anything other than 'normal' personal dynamics'???!

PS - I think you would be 'crazy'(!) as a psych to engage with anyone beyond your expertise and experience.
PPS - Clinical psych's or a Psychoanalysist would be a better fit (my opinion) in a therapeutic setting to engage with such as PDs as their training would more lend towards preparing them to a range of dynamics.

Hi Bam, Thanks for the reply, I have now been targeted by 2 NPD/Histrionic females (the most recent was less toxic and more sophisticated and it took me a while to realise what was going on) and on each occassion I have come away feeling pretty depressed...being played for a chump is only a part of the bad feeling. Maybe I'm more sensitive than some (maybe its that empathy/sensitivity that makes us a better "victim" to the HPD) I've read here a posting by Kontroller X and it was borne out in another Psych website, that it is a well Known psych phenomena that PD's will be attracted to people that have a PD that is the opposite off their particular problem, ie they are looking for a partner who has a part of them that they have shut off/rejected from their own psyche, ie an HPD who is outgoing and sociable will be attracted to an AVPD type of person, this is known in psych circles as "The Dance"....It's wonderful at first of course but mainly doomed to fail when the more pathological partner (The HPD decides to kick the AVPD partner to the curb).....A film made by Ingmar Bergman a few years back called "Persona" dealt with the topic of PI...I must dig it out and watch it again...

Thanks for the reply

Mako 7

Mako7 wrote:I have come away feeling pretty depressed...being played for a chump is only a part of the bad feeling. Maybe I'm more sensitive than some (maybe its that empathy/sensitivity that makes us a better "victim" to the HPD)

You'll read from many here that relate. I dont think your nec 'more sensitive'. It would appear that these types sense people who are empathetic and caring and it damn well HURTS to realise that these traits in us have been used and abused.

Mako7 wrote:it is a well Known psych phenomena that PD's will be attracted to people that have a PD that is the opposite off their particular problem

It's also well known in layman's land that people in general are attracted to traits in others that they admire, want and dont have themselves. I'm thinking that you're in that space post relationship where you are searching for meaning, trying to make sense of it all. This is how 'normal' people opperate. I was watching a program the other night on plane crash survivors and how after a narrow escape from death they strive really hard to find meaning in it all. When something happens in life that shocks us or is unaligned with the gentle 'flow' of life, being human we need to rationalise it, find out what the heck that meant in the scheme of things. The alternative is excepting that sometimes random chaos and unexplainable things happen. As a human species we seem to find that hard to swallow. It is also a good reflection as to why some people turn to religion or to science for answers, however, anything we do cling to is JUST a theory that eases our fear of living an existence that ends solidly in death, nothing more. I better stop before I get too philosophical! (what does it all mean??? Why am I here??? )

Mako7 wrote:this is known in psych circles as "The Dance"....It's wonderful at first of course but mainly doomed to fail

lol - if you read some of my earlier posts you'l see Ive used the words 'and the dance begins...' We engage in these little dances all the time, play out our roles in every aspect of life, thru many relationships all the time. I used to watch the fights between my parents when I was young and I used to view them as 'their dance' - the same steps played out unconsciously all the time. We all do it, just usually without the really taumatic effects the HPD dance leaves us with.

Hi
Bam Wrote:

You'll read from many here that relate. I dont think your nec 'more sensitive'. It would appear that these types sense people who are empathetic and caring and it damn well HURTS to realise that these traits in us have been used and abused.

Yep I have empathy in spades..... so thats where we're all going wrong

Part of the problem is lack of closure....cos it's very diificult to call them out on this BS ...and if you do manage to I imagine they won't be tuned into you anyway.....Guess the best way is to just suck it up and learn not to wear your heart on your sleeve

"The Dance" as Bam described...yeah I've been reading a lot lately (I have a theory that PD's are all Amazon shareholders) and all the literature points as to how we're all programmed as children to behave in certain ways and how we will, in later life, search out people who are archetypes of our parents/primary caregivers, and keep re-acting those same plays, using the same worn out scripts....As the poet Philip Larkin wrote "They F**K you up your mum and dad, they don't mean to but they do"

Mako7

Mako7 wrote:Part of the problem is lack of closure....cos it's very diificult to call them out on this BS ...and if you do manage to I imagine they won't be tuned into you anyway.....

Hey Mako7, I know you read and responded to (thankyou) my lastest thread. In that post is my answer and response to this.

Mako7 wrote:Guess the best way is to just suck it up and learn not to wear your heart on your sleeve

yes and no. I refuse to throw away the empathetic, giving and trusting aspects of myself. They make me who I am, I am proud to be able to hold these traits. Look at the opposite (hpd characteristics) and ask if you would prefer to live like that? No way buddy!
These traits have given me good, real and honest relationships and connections with others throughout my life so I will keep them. HOWEVER, I WILL trust my intuition more, I WILL act on my intuition and chase things that dont feel or seem right, even if someone attempts to manipulate me not to. I WILL pay upmost attention to the congruency between words and behaviours. Actions speak louder than words...these little cliches/sayings have ultimately come from a place of learnt experience! I WILL give of myself freely but I will also expect the same and will recognise when I am not treated how I deserve to be. I WILL NOT, ever, try so hard in vain to change someone, enlighten someone or ask from them what they are incapable of giving. I WILL NOT stay in another bad relationship for so bloody long ever again. I'm too old for this $#%^!