Self-worth from attention

Scarlett1939 wrote:
So not sure if this helps but I honestly do not have low self esteem, so I think there is a key word somewhere that we are missing here besides self esteem. But it is gratifying to know that you are desirable in anyone. WHO doesn't feel good when they know they are attractive. The difference is... WE have a distorted view of what that means...
maybe some have way low self esteem and I know that it is true. But, I am not one that does.

Scarlett, perhaps you don't perceive yourself as having low self-esteem, but your stories show that you seek out and need the validation of men to assure yourself that you are still attractive in some way. Maybe the word for you isn't lack of self-esteem but rather a exaggerated need for external validation. Do you sense that your value needs to be validated? What happens if you go for long periods of time wihout attracting attention?
Lifesong

Scarlett1939 wrote:Hope you are having a good new year. And just forgot to comment to you on the other post, but your situation of what your wife does/did in the tickling/tackling is probably the oddest thing I've heard of practically on this board[...]
And I hope that your wife is still doing better. Haven't caught up with all the updates yet so wasn't sure what has been going on with you.

Welcome back, Scarlett! I hope you've had a good festive season. And yes, this year is far better than last year and will continue to be so.

I had a bit of an epiphany before Christmas, where I woke up to the fact that most of our problems really were, in an important way, my fault. I'd chosen to accept, or endure, or politely complain about my wife's behaviour. I'd begged her to respect me and our relationship. And I realised, a month ago, that I was doing it all wrong. Asking for respect never, ever works. You tell them that they will respect you, and you back it up with consequences for disrespect. As Alphabet would put it, I'd accepted my role as a victim, instead of choosing not to be the victim. Now, whatever happens, I won't be her victim.

So I sat down with her, and said "Things are going to change. Any time a guy makes a pass at you, he's setting himself up as a suitor and as my rival. I will not tolerate you spending time with anyone who would be my rival. So if you want me to stay in this relationship, you will choose not to spend time with any guy who makes passes at you."

And she bitched and moaned that I was being controlling and that I had trust issues and that I was trying to stop her from having friends, all the usual crap, and said if I was trying to drive away her friends then she'd be better off divorcing me. I just told her that if it was that important to her to spend time with suitors, then I'd get the papers signed and we would both go our separate ways. The next day I asked her what her choice was, and she (albeit ungraciously) agreed.

Since then I've basically just spoken my mind. If she's affectionate towards me she gets the same treatment she always did - lots of hugs and kisses and back rubs and stuff. If she's upset I'll try and find out why, and maybe fix it. But if she's abusive towards me I'll tell her to cut the crap, and if she puts me down or makes vindictive 'oh but it's ok to say this because I'm just joking' type jokes, I'll call her on it and tell her to stop being hurtful. If she tries to guilt me into doing something, shrug it off. And to my surprise, she's reacting really well! Every few days she'll try to cook something up into an argument, really just a shit test to see if I've let my guard down and can be pushed around again yet. But each time that I stand my ground and tell her that no, it's actually not OK to act like that, the next day she seems happier and more committed than ever.

The next interesting challenge will be a party that's coming up in a week or so, held by one of the guys she used to flirt with (and probably still does online). Initially she asked me if I wanted to go and I just said "no, I'm not interested, the only reason he's friends with you in the first place is that you're on his list of potential tail". I've thought more about it, though, and if she pushes to go, I'll agree, on the condition that every single time he makes a pass at her, she tell him to back off and that a real friend would respect her enough to not try to intrude on her relationship. If she refuses, we don't go. If she doesn't follow through then we leave, if we leave and she doesn't come with me then I change the locks.

Scarlett1939 wrote:Hi Smile...

Ok then I stand corrected. I will say I have never seen or experience that in my friends ever. Not meaning you are secretly gay or anything I am sure. but wonder if it is the age thing... I am 34 so maybe in the younger age groups they do this now.

But I guarantee Tattered's wife is a woman and doesn't do this with her female friends because she doesn't get a reaction like she does from the men that find her attractive.

But thanks for correcting me. I will pay closer attention to the younger groups and see if that is what I notice them doing.

S

Lol. I'm 21 not 16... and my friends rage from 19-57... so... I'm not 100% sure this is an age-related thing.
Maybe it's locational or something.

Hey smile!
Perhaps it might be locational in deed. I have just never seen women tickle each other ever. Not even my mom and her friends when I was young nor any women I work with or friends with.

But either way Tattered has said she doesn't do this with her women companoons but insists on touching the male friends. So her purpose was for more than friendship in those instances. And for even "harmless" attention seeking. And harmless only in her mind not that it is really harmless.

You are for sure much younger than me and no I didn't think you were a kid but was just thinking maybe times have changed since I was younger. .

Lifesong...
Well perhaps it is difficult to explain. One with low self esteem doesn't usually display confidence in themselves and they hold their head down or are reluctant to express what they want and doesn't usually (usually) complete things or have the ambition to go out into the world and do something. So that is the self esteem in which I speak of. I have never been afraid to tackle new challenges and and have confidence in myself. Being self conscious and low self esteem are not the same. I am self conscious of pictures of myself because I am my own worst critic. I look for every flaw if I see a picture of myself.

This isn't low self esteem though because I do not allow that self consciousness to rule me or hold me back and I sure don't get depressed about it because I know there is nothing I can do. Nothing but plastic surgery will change my physical features and I would never feel that much to ever change myself in that way. I am comfortable with myself and get up go to work come home and be with my family. So as long as we are all happy together I am not focused so much on what I look like on the outside. I am not the most beautiful and I am certainly not the most ugly.

But most of my things I have done were before I was married in validating myself in destructive ways. But what happens now sometimes when I get looks or comments or whatever IS validate "that I still got it" so to speak. Now doesn't every one do that to an extent especially when they get older ??? Yes I believe they do. But my goal is to get the thought out of my head to even notice or care when this happens. I want to not feel or say that "if I were single I could have them if I wanted". This always creeps in my mind and I try and control to keep it out. And I. Have said on the other posts that I have the choice to be better and plan to keep being that way. I try to rationally convince myself that it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks... I am good for me. And let's hope I finally get to that goal and I will be even happier than I am now. Thank you to all of you that have helped me this far.

Tattered!!

Having a good new year so far and hope you holidays were good too!

I am so proud of you that you did this. You give her no option but to do the right thing. I think she needs to realize that you are making a last attempt to save your marriage.

If I were you I would tell her that she shouldn't even WANT to go to the party of a guy that wants to sleep with her. Make her understand that. It isn't what that guy would be willing to do it is what SHE would allow him to do or think that he could have her. But you do it your way as you see fit. That is just my opinion.

She only complains of you controlling because you aren't giving her the space to continue on doing these things. And when you are ready for that battle I would pit a stop to the online flirting as well.

I am glad that you did this. That way you have done everything to help her and yourself and you both as a couple.

I really hope that it works.

Holidays were great, and life continues to be good.

She would deny it to her last breath, but her abusive behaviour was testing me to see whether I'm strong enough to stand up to her - if I am, then I'm strong enough to protect her and so she feels safe and secure with me. I believe that she's been so much happier and more committed because for the first time ever, I'm passing the shit-test instead of failing it. It's been working with no major 'we might break up over this' type arguments for about a month now, which is near the record for our last year. I can't see why it wouldn't continue to work as long as I can maintain my alpha role in the relationship.

As for the online flirting, I work full time and she doesn't work, so I'm taking it on faith that she's stopped. I've seen no evidence for a fair while and I'm not getting the "someone on my mind and it's not you" vibe any more so I believe she's cooled it off. If I catch her at it she gets a keylogger installed and a final warning that any further mis-steps will see her out in the cold for keeps. She hasn't mentioned the party she wanted to go to again either, so I'm assuming that was just another shit-test, and she seems quite happy with our current plans for that day, so I'm guessing I passed.

Hi again TK,

From what you are writing, I would recommend you check out a program called "The Ultimate Relationship Program" by the Robbins-Mandanes institute.

It is REALLY good, but the proviso is that is would make a person very vulnerable to abuse. Should you find the correct person, though, it seems like one of the best relationship models I've come across in a long time, and echoes what you seem to be saying in your last few posts (but goes a lot deeper - the program is more than 10 hours long - video, audio & reading)

That being said, I think there are many people here where asserting boundaries will cause the HPD acting out. I believe that's what happened in my case, and I'm fortunate in the sense that I did not go back - I called it quits after the first clear major 'betrayal' - but I still suffered many of the symptoms described here. I did not, however, abandon this person when she was merely showing clear signs of having 'issues' - that would violate my loyalty codes.

Kind regards

Scarlett1939 wrote:Tattered!!

Having a good new year so far and hope you holidays were good too!

I am so proud of you that you did this. You give her no option but to do the right thing. I think she needs to realize that you are making a last attempt to save your marriage.

If I were you I would tell her that she shouldn't even WANT to go to the party of a guy that wants to sleep with her. Make her understand that. It isn't what that guy would be willing to do it is what SHE would allow him to do or think that he could have her. But you do it your way as you see fit. That is just my opinion.

She only complains of you controlling because you aren't giving her the space to continue on doing these things. And when you are ready for that battle I would pit a stop to the online flirting as well.

I am glad that you did this. That way you have done everything to help her and yourself and you both as a couple.

I really hope that it works.

See this is what I don't understand. These people are suppose to be "testing" you for your strength but you are telling him to tell her "not" to go to the party? Most women would conisder that "weak" due to not being confident in the relationship right? Is it only because if she gets put in this situation she might not be able to control her impulses?

Will5900 wrote:See this is what I don't understand. These people are suppose to be "testing" you for your strength but you are telling him to tell her "not" to go to the party? Most women would conisder that "weak" due to not being confident in the relationship right? Is it only because if she gets put in this situation she might not be able to control her impulses?

That's how I used to see it, and is a lot of why I didn't just kick each 'other guy' in the teeth as he came on the scene. What I should do is just sit back, confident in the strength of my relationship, because she'd never even think about another guy, right? If I complain about the attention she gets from other men, I'm insecure and I'll 'drive her away', right?

Wrong, this is a classic case where you should never listen to what a histrionic woman says and only ever give any weight to what she does. Here's why:
1) The only person she knows at this party is the guy holding it.
2) The only connection she has with this guy is that she likes flirting with him.
3) Therefore she wants to go to this party to flirt with this guy.
4) Flirting with another guy, especially right in my face, is incredibly disrespectful. No man with a scrap of self-esteem or integrity would accept it, and I cringe to think of the times in the past where I've let shit like this slide.

If I let her set this situation up, I am tacitly condoning her treating me with this level of disrespect and I deserve anything I get. It's not about whether I trust her to will handle his advances properly. It's about seeing her trying to set up a situation where she will be treating me with disrespect and calling her on it straight away. I think the exact exchange went a bit like this:

Her: Ooh, M is having a party for New Years'! Let's go there!
Me: I'd prefer to do something with our group of friends.
Her: I know you don't like M but really he's a good guy.
Me: We're not going to M's party. The only reason M is your 'friend' at all is that you flirted with him and he thinks you might have sex with him. I'm not going to spend what should be an enjoyable day watching you flirting with another man.
Her: Oh. OK. Let's spend the day with our friends.

The subtext here was:

Her: Here is a chance for me to spend some time with M.
Me: I would prefer to do something as a couple instead.
Her: I enjoy the attention I get from M.
Me: I won't accept you seeking attention from other men.
Her: I respect you more and I am less likely to try and treat you like a disposable muppet in future.

It wasn't about me being jealous about her being around a guy who liked her. It was about me refusing to accept even her *suggestion* that she could treat me with disrespect.