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The church and being transgender:

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The church and being transgender:

Postby hedgesxlr » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:52 pm

Now here is another interesting issue alot of peole bring up. Some people will try to bring up their religion as a reason for why being transgender is a sin. the amazing truth is, the bible never covers this. The closest it comes, is to say that everybody is God's child, no matter what. Think of him like an extremely supportive parent in this case. The bible says that if you ask his forgiveness, he will show it. And being trans gender is not a sin in any form. people try to say it is by saying that God makes no mistakes, and they are right. God doesnt make mistakes. However, biology does. God creates our minds and souls, but our physical being is created by a biological process. who is to say God didnt want me to be female. Maybe he did, and biology had different ideas. As for people saying that the church is ignorant, that just isnt true either. People are ignorant. The roman catholic church as a whole supports people who are different, and embraces them. That of course doesnt mean that everybody will agree with it. There will always be those who hate us, and we need to forgive them as the Bible has taught us to. I personally am a devout episcopalian. i try to go to church every sunday. I also had the fortune of being raised in the denomination that has the most open beliefs, and least offensive people. Never blame religion as a whole for the world's problems.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby GinaSmith » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:37 pm

Hi Hedgesxlr (and everyone),

I'm interested in any discussion of religion. I'd like to keep an open mind about it and debate it with intelligent people.

With that in mind, I hope you don't mind me responding. During the broad span of time in which the books of the Bible were written, was there any concept of transgender? There wasn't even a modern-style concept of homosexuality. It seems unlikely that books written by humans (even if impelled to do so by some divine afflatus) would contain concepts that humans had no concept of at the time (such as transgender). Therefore it's self-evident we wouldn't find any explicit censure in this regard.

That said, if a person was born, say, a heterosexual woman in a man's body in those days, it seems like she would have sought relationships with men, and this would have been deemed 'lying with another man', so to speak, which is explicitly condemned in the Bible. She would be lumped together with that category, would she not?

I'm kind of arguing outside my subject; though I've dabbled in philosophy of religion, I'm no expert on scripture. Still, a good dose of philosophy in general and an even bigger dose of intellectual curiosity are reason enough to pose a few questions I hope!
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby hedgesxlr » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:27 pm

GinaSmith wrote:Hi Hedgesxlr (and everyone),

I'm interested in any discussion of religion. I'd like to keep an open mind about it and debate it with intelligent people.

With that in mind, I hope you don't mind me responding. During the broad span of time in which the books of the Bible were written, was there any concept of transgender? There wasn't even a modern-style concept of homosexuality. It seems unlikely that books written by humans (even if impelled to do so by some divine afflatus) would contain concepts that humans had no concept of at the time (such as transgender). Therefore it's self-evident we wouldn't find any explicit censure in this regard.

That said, if a person was born, say, a heterosexual woman in a man's body in those days, it seems like she would have sought relationships with men, and this would have been deemed 'lying with another man', so to speak, which is explicitly condemned in the Bible. She would be lumped together with that category, would she not?

I'm kind of arguing outside my subject; though I've dabbled in philosophy of religion, I'm no expert on scripture. Still, a good dose of philosophy in general and an even bigger dose of intellectual curiosity are reason enough to pose a few questions I hope!

It is an interesting world today. You are right, though. People cant bias their beliefs on something that was written hundreds of years ago. The bible says nothing about transgender, and that is why most modern churches are supporting of it. The bible says nothing on the subject, so we must automatically go for the new testament's message of love everybody as God loves us.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby Euler » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:13 am

With that in mind, I hope you don't mind me responding. During the broad span of time in which the books of the Bible were written, was there any concept of transgender? There wasn't even a modern-style concept of homosexuality. It seems unlikely that books written by humans (even if impelled to do so by some divine afflatus) would contain concepts that humans had no concept of at the time (such as transgender). Therefore it's self-evident we wouldn't find any explicit censure in this regard.


Actually they did have their own thinking about trans folks. Almost every ancient culture negotiated this in some way shape or form...like how the Hinduu's made MTF's a caste of their own, the ancient Jews assumed MTF's to be natural eunuchs (or volunteers, however there was no mention of FTMs though).

Now Jesus did say something along the lines of blessed be the Eunuchs for some are forced, some by choice, and some by birth...I forget which exact book and chapter but it did catch my eye several times.

Not to mention that the Romans and Greeks favored MTF's as "boy prostitutes"...Now Jesus did hang out under Roman occupation, and when he visited major cities he did hang with prostitutes. Honestly, for further evidence on the spirit of this you can read the Beatitudes...you'll notice very quickly that it emphasis those who are un-privileged.

Also, homosexuality stems from Judaism and God's covenant with the Jews...so known the those laws are even applicable to we goi. Not to mention that its considered a ritual sin and not a societal sin, and its mentioned after eating shell-fish. So, eating shrimp is worse in God's eyes, only if you're Jewish, then being gay and Jewish.

The point being that I'm Christian, I can't find anything heteresexist in the Bible just many alleged Christians have no idea of what they're talking about.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby TROJAN » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:06 pm

I have been a member to two organisations that deal with people who have GID, and the literature they provided(including letters from members who were FTMs and MTFs,)was very negative as far as the point of view of The Church is concerned. I read one article to suggest that a vicar had told a MTF that they were evil and would be judged by God.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby rydzcrackers » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:49 pm

I tried everything to reconcile my crossdressing with Christianity. I read a book by a crossdresser for those struggling with the strongly enforced gender roles in Christianity. The book, "The Cross and the Crossdresser", was a great attempt to use the KJV to help, and it did, but not in the way the author intended. I washed my hands of "sand religions" and found acceptance with pagans. Just so you know, any religion outside Christianity, Judaism or Islam, is considered "pagan". The word "pagan" sometimes evokes ideas of worshiping golden calves, sacrificing but nothing could be further from the truth. Embracing nature, celebrating life, loving everyone for being who they are -- those are the realities of what I discovered. That change of religious perspective really took the pressure off. I am more serene and know that the same god I prayed to before, still loves me.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby donovan, learning » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:18 am

Quite simply, the Church has no credibility on the subject. The Church puts a lot of emphasis on Sexuality because it is such a powerful behavioral motivator and fundamental component of a person's identity--and if you can control something as intimate and private as sexuality, you can control a person completely through guilt and fear.

Here's what you need to know.

In the 1970's, a scientist working at the University of Humboldt in Berlin named Gunter Doerner did groundbreaking research on Homosexuality and gender. He initially used the standard lab rats, which we use because their physiology and biological functions so closely mirror humans. He discovered that he could create "gay rats" which consistently offered themselves to other male rats in submission sexual postures, as would a female rate--indicating that their brains were indeed "sexed" as "feminine". He did this after discovering that at a certain phase in the development of a fetus, the brain receives "sex assignment" BEFORE the body's primary sexual characteristics develop. The causal factor was dependent upon the levels of testosterone present in the womb, as determined by the mother's endocrine system. Doerner replicated the deficiency which "sexed" the brain as "female", and in turn, "created" "Gay rats".

He went one step further. He theorized that, if the male rat had a "female brain", then a shot of estrogen should produce from the brain a predictable surge of the luteinizing hormone (LH), as if in response to an ovary--impossible, of course, in a male rat's body. However, that's exactly what happened! This proved that the rat's brain was indeed "feminine". In other words, the rat was "Gay".

But here's the fascinating part---Doerner then went over the line and repeated the same experiments on HUMAN subjects--Gay males. AND THE RESULTS WERE THE SAME. The brains produced the SAME expected surge of LH---because the brain expected there to be an ovary to begin ovulating!

So why isn't this common knowledge? Because Doerner was apparently somewhat motivated by a personal bias, and he started to draw conclusions and make statements that basically Homosexuality could be purged from Humanity. And coming from a German scientist from Berlin, and with the shadow of Nazi Eugenics programs still in the recent historical records and memory, this caused a massive backlash. The Gay Community was the first to decry and disavow the research. It takes no huge imagination to understand why--Doerner was effectively stating the Homosexuality was a "defect" and wanted to be able to remove it as a natural occurrence in a certain percentage of the population. The loss to humanity would be immeasurable. His research was dismissed, buried, disavowed.

Researchers at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm Sweden have recently confirmed the same fact by detecting identical brain wave patterns between the brains of STRIAGHT females and GAY males when exposed to STRAIGHT male pheromones present in sweat. The STRAIGHT men's brain showed completely DIFFERENT patterns. Ergo, it is conclusive; homosexuality--and gender assignment--occurs in the brain, and is an intrinsic part of what we are.

The exact data is not yet 100 available, nor is the subject 100& understood as an exact science, but when you think about the Bible and the Church, there's NO WAY they could have known ANY of this. Therefore, you should take absolutely NO direction or advice from any agent or source from the Church. They simply have nothing to say on the matter, and Science once again has shown that YES, "God" does make what some people would consider "mistakes"--but ONLY if you look at opposite gender identity issues or Homosexuality as a "mistake"; I, personally do not, in a pejorative sense, but I do recognize the mismatching of the brain/body relationship.

Having said that, I can't imagine Humanity without our vaunted and important Gay individuals. Yet Doerner would have wiped the future clean of our Liberaces, Elton Johns, Michaelangelos, etc.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby XXYZGuy » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:37 pm

hedgesxlr wrote:Now here is another interesting issue alot of peole bring up. Some people will try to bring up their religion as a reason for why being transgender is a sin. the amazing truth is, the bible never covers this. The closest it comes, is to say that everybody is God's child, no matter what. Think of him like an extremely supportive parent in this case. The bible says that if you ask his forgiveness, he will show it. And being trans gender is not a sin in any form. people try to say it is by saying that God makes no mistakes, and they are right. God doesnt make mistakes. However, biology does. God creates our minds and souls, but our physical being is created by a biological process. who is to say God didnt want me to be female. Maybe he did, and biology had different ideas. As for people saying that the church is ignorant, that just isnt true either. People are ignorant. The roman catholic church as a whole supports people who are different, and embraces them. That of course doesnt mean that everybody will agree with it. There will always be those who hate us, and we need to forgive them as the Bible has taught us to. I personally am a devout episcopalian. i try to go to church every sunday. I also had the fortune of being raised in the denomination that has the most open beliefs, and least offensive people. Never blame religion as a whole for the world's problems.


Rather than contend that God does not exist I'll contend that the concept the bible describes as God does not exist. The curious thing about the concept of God many Jewish/Christian people seem to have is that even though He is all knowing and all seeing, He never managed to conceive of any existence beyond male and female. He never managed to get His ideas of cloning correct, and He never managed to create anything before His created invented it, such as the printing press, ink, and paper. It seems to me that if the God concept we're to accept as God Himself were true, as described in the Torah and Bible, then He ought to have managed at least 1 miracle of creation before His created being invented it.

Take the first version of the creation of humans in the Bible and Torah, where man was supposedly created first, and woman was made from mans rib. This is the first description in literature of human cloning and it fails. Had God really created woman from mans rib then woman must have the same sex chromosomes as man. I certainly know of women with XY sex chromosomes, they have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and/or Rifenstein's Syndrome, and/or Swyer Syndrome, and they're all infertile. Although in modern times women with Swyer Syndrome can become surrogate mothers, they have a womb just no ovaries. Ooops, for a God who never made a mistake those surely are mistakes! Or the persons who wrote about how people were created were guessing, based on their observations, and God had nothing to do with their imaginations.

Please do note that in the Torah and Bible only women are "barren." Even men known to be infertile, if the authors thought even a little about it, were not described as "barren." They were described as eunuchs! They were despised and were denied leadership roles. You can find reference to them in Deuteronomy 23:1. And Jesus is reported to have mentioned eunuchs also as "being born that way from their mothers womb" and "being made that way by men" and "making themselves that way for the kingdom of God."

Do I believe that men in Jesus day castrated themselves somehow for God's glory, not in the least. I believe some men chose to refrain from sexual activity in the pursuit of Godliness. I believe some men were castrated by other men as punishment for crimes, and I believe some men were born without testes as in certain medical conditions today. But because of their lack of medical knowledge they were all described as eunuchs.

In reproductive terms and evolutionary terms there are only males and females, without such distinctive differences none of us would be here. Of course in all other systems of creation not all mutations are healthy, not all mutations proceed, and not all mutations are copied for the advancement of the species.

There is a long standing history in Christian Judaic society to set apart people who are different. Often the differences were brought about by disease, some even being contagious causing disfigurement and fatalities. For the advancement of their society it was necessary to weed out those who displayed those differences, and to describe some as "sinners" or to infer that somebody in the history of the family must have sinned seriously in some terrible way for these disfigurements and diseases to be visited upon them, even Disorders of Sexual Development, or infertility.

It is my contention that the "church" (who are people) generally are just as ignorant of disorders of sexual development as many other people in society today. That is because the topic is about sex. From that long standing history of setting people apart who are different, and maintaining sex somehow is only characterised as obviously male and obviously female persons, it must be maintained for the sake of ignorance, that anybody who is not obviously male and obviously female, must be the worst people who ever walked the earth. They (church people) can't imagine life any other way as they have never seen life any other way, and such life is certainly not encouraged in the Bible and Torah.

As a result, it is my opinion, that many Transsexual people, (that is people who have had surgery to align their bodies with their minds), attempt to claim a known Disorder of Sexual Development as justification for their transitioning. I believe they're forced into it by the religious among us, as they appear to accept that if a DSD has a known medical cause and surgery is an accepted treatment, then they accept those people into the body of believers much more readily than those who have disorders that are not as well understood, they revert to their well established setting people apart routine. I don't believe it is healthy for Transsexual people to live a pretense. It is also not healthy for religious people to impose their personal state of being on others, who do not share their state of being.
I was officially diagnosed with Klinefelter's syndrome in 1976. In October 1977 I began testosterone therapy. It is estimated I developed Klinefelter's syndrome when I was 14 years old.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby Euler » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:45 pm

Hey, Donovan:

You're completely confusing gender and sexuality. If such research were really that simple than I am either impossible or I should be cis-gendered because I'm a lesbian MTF, lol.
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Re: The church and being transgender:

Postby donovan, learning » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:07 pm

Euler wrote:Hey, Donovan:

You're completely confusing gender and sexuality. If such research were really that simple than I am either impossible or I should be cis-gendered because I'm a lesbian MTF, lol.
Not at all, Euler. Lesbians have differently sexed brains as well, I"m sure--the Science is not perfected, nor without possible potential mitigating factors yet to be discovered, but the Science is out there and it IS documented and tested in the manner in which we currently accept and cite "Scientific Theory".
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