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F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

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F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby AZSam » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:45 pm

I'm a female to male transsexual who's been living as a man for 20yrs. Recently I've been thinking about switching back to being a female.

Originally, these thoughts were driven by a desire to not be alone; my parents are elderly and once they're gone, no one I associate with will KNOW me as I truely am: transgender. I'm also sooo tired of living this illusion of being a man: wondering if some guy staring at me in a restaurant is wondering if I'm a guy or a girl, wondering if a group of giggling girls are laughing about me, having to sit in such a way so that it's not obvious that I don't have the telltale "bulge" in my pants.

For about the past month i've found myself fantasizing about what it would be like to be female again, whereas in the past, it was always fantasies about what it would be like to truely be a man (aka biological male). In the past if you asked me what my gender identity was, I would've said without a doubt, male. But last night, I asked myself that same question and I couldn't answer the question. I seemed to be leaning towards the answer, female, not male.

All of this has got me very confused. Everything I've read on the subject of gender identity said "once your gender identity is fixed, it can no longer be changed". Something's not right, either gender identity can change or I'm more screwed up than I thought I was (meaning: I never had a male gender identity in the first place).

Any knowledge, advice or opinions on the subject would be very welcome.
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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby watching&waiting » Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:19 pm

I don't think gender changes, so much as your perception of it does.

You sound more insecure than anything else.
Have you ever considered anything outside the male/female binary? Genderqueer, androgen, third gender.

Though, a question for you. Over the past 20 years you've lived as male, have you been happier than you were living as female?
I'm assuming you're on hormones, have you had top surgery yet (it's a fair question, though I suspect it's "yes")?

It's very unlikely you're not passing at this point so far into transitioning, just so you know.

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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby AZSam » Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:52 pm

Have you ever considered anything outside the male/female binary? Genderqueer, androgen, third gender. This may be the answer. Maybe I don't fit into the stereotypical role of male/female.

Though, a question for you. Over the past 20 years you've lived as male, have you been happier than you were living as female? This is hard to answer, because when I lived as a female before I had a very strong male identity and I completely rejected anything female, so I was miserable as a female. Now, this isn't true anymore, I'm much more excepting of the idea of both my masculine and feminine "qualities".
I'm assuming you're on hormones, have you had top surgery yet (it's a fair question, though I suspect it's "yes")? I was on hormones for one year only (the year prior to my surgery). I've had a bilateral mastectomy and had both my uterus and ovaries removed.

It's very unlikely you're not passing at this point so far into transitioning, just so you know. You'd be surprised how often someone says "ma'am" instead of "sir", seems to happen most often in the grocery store of all places. I have facial hair, but I'm short, so I wonder if they're not actually looking at me, just glancing and assuming based on my height that I'm a woman. They seem to always correct themselves when they actually look at me.
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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby watching&waiting » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:17 pm

AZSam wrote:This may be the answer. Maybe I don't fit into the stereotypical role of male/female.

This is hard to answer, because when I lived as a female before I had a very strong male identity and I completely rejected anything female, so I was miserable as a female. Now, this isn't true anymore, I'm much more excepting of the idea of both my masculine and feminine "qualities".

I was on hormones for one year only (the year prior to my surgery). I've had a bilateral mastectomy and had both my uterus and ovaries removed.

You'd be surprised how often someone says "ma'am" instead of "sir", seems to happen most often in the grocery store of all places. I have facial hair, but I'm short, so I wonder if they're not actually looking at me, just glancing and assuming based on my height that I'm a woman. They seem to always correct themselves when they actually look at me.


It's not too unusual, though plenty of people don't understand it.

Your next statement makes me think further that you may be more in between the two, but truthfully only you can decide for yourself.

Why did you drop the hormones? Were the shots just too much for you, or did you not feel the need after the voice/hair? I find this odd, and if you don't want to answer that's fine I'm too curious for my own good.

Probably looking at your height. That's... fail. Really. If someone has FACIAL HAIR you'd think that's a pretty obvious male gender-mark
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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby AZSam » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:34 pm

I stopped the hormones originally because of the cost. Later on when I could afford them, I felt I didn't need them and didn't want to lose my hair (call me vain :P ).

Probably looking at your height. That's... fail. Really. If someone has FACIAL HAIR you'd think that's a pretty obvious male gender-mark


I think people can be blind at times. Funny part is they always get flustered when they realize their mistake. I usually just ignore their blunder.
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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby watching&waiting » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:07 am

AZSam wrote:I stopped the hormones originally because of the cost. Later on when I could afford them, I felt I didn't need them and didn't want to lose my hair (call me vain :P ).

Haha. Vanity... eh, most of the changes stay anyway, besides fat distribution/muscle, but if you've had a hysto that shouldn't be much of an issue

I think people can be blind at times. Funny part is they always get flustered when they realize their mistake. I usually just ignore their blunder.

I love stupid people. Once in awhile I've passed while NOT binding (note, tumors are HUGE). Those days are the biggest ego-boost ever.

Some people. Psh. Can't take them seriously.

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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby megeria » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:29 am

watching&waiting wrote:I don't think gender changes, so much as your perception of it does.


I totally agree with the 2nd part of Tyler's statement.

I am coming from the other direction of (M to F) and have only half your years of experience living in my chosen gender. However, I do see gender as more of a social construct than when I first started out. I think it is because we have made the change in gender once; We know from experience that is not black and white, so we are more open to thinking about our place in the continuum.

I did know some FTM who were uncomfortable unless they are packing. I think from time to time we all feel some insecurity, as society constantly remind us that we are the transgressors of the social norms.

Regarding knowing our gender identity, I really have considered where I sat on the continuum. In a way, I would say my ideal gender identity would require me to cherry pick from both the male side as well as the female. I have been friends with people who walked the thin line of androgyne and it is too hard for me. I call myself a sellout for bowing to the pressure to conform to the expectations of our patriarchal society. I know that a large portion of me is female but I think I will always carry a little part of me that can't forget and wants the trappings of being male. Sometimes this part surfaces and I wonder if it is worth what I given up. So I wonder if you maybe feeling some of the same?

The thing about gender identity not changing never made sense to me. Some people have described the qualities of being female is the absence of the qualities associated with male. So if a man who does not give the expected masculine response then the perception is that he is "not a man". And if they *never* give the expected masculine response then the perception would be he is "just like a woman". In fact some may internalize this perception and begin to identify with the opposite gender. Being transsexual, we must both believe that someone who identify with their non-birth gender can exist and the fact that they so strongly identify with their chosen gender makes them a member of that gender. So taken together, every act we do make must us more male or female as far as our gender identity is concern. The reason why people don't all flip-flop over the gender divide is because of the constant reinforcement of the gender norms by society and everyone we meet. As soon as you move too far from the poles of the continuum, people will start cueing you and applying increasing pressure for you to turn back like: "Be a man", "Thats not very ladylike", etc. So it is a rare event that someone(transsexual) manages to cross the gender divide at which point they immediately start getting you to conform to the other side. The only reason why people say gender identity doesn't change is because of the invisible enforcement of gender norms; So it appears to be static and binary. So I don't think you are screw up for questioning your gender, but you are definitely feeling the effects of societal pressure to conform to their expectations. Your question on how you can feel male and then feel female shows how you are unconsciously adopting the expectations. And because you don't fit the expectations, you feel stress and uncomfortable with yourself.
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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby Forgottenpast » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:23 am

AZSam wrote:Originally, these thoughts were driven by a desire to not be alone; my parents are elderly and once they're gone, no one I associate with will KNOW me as I truely am: transgender.


OMG - I'm a male-to-female - and I could have written this sentence myself. I've been living and working as a female for nearly 25 years, AND I KNOW SO WELL WHAT YOU MEAN about the 'illusion' of this life. I rarely tell anyone the truth about myself for fear of how this will affect my life: Will I be discriminated against? Will I lose my job? It has happened before, as it's happened with nearly every transsexual I've known who works. It's constant stress and fear of discovery.

I also fear that I'll be completely alone once my parents are gone. I've tried having relationships - with the chasers no less - and as every MtF knows that's generally a deadend.

I, personally, wouldn't want to go back to living as a male, but I have thought of other options.
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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby magickpsy » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:20 pm

Hi there, I'm fully transitioned ftm. I've got all the plumbing and from my perspective, it seems you are not truly transsexual (but I could be 100% wrong, so please don't take this as a statement of fact it is only my subjective opinion, ok?) Ever since my earliest recollection of consciousness, I have always *known* I AM a guy. I never felt like a guy, I just WAS a guy. There is a big, big difference.

Hormones: I was totally broke, on government assistance, but I always, always, always found a way to get Testosterone. Compounding pharmacies that are easily searched online make it available and it cost me less than $10 a month when I broke down the cost of a 10ml vial. One of the first tell tale signs that you may not be truly transsexual is when you realize that you can't afford hormones. They are in fact cheaper than supplying someone's smoking or coffee drinking habits on a monthly basis. They are cheaper than gas in the car. This is not to find fault with anything you've said or done, because I think you're on the right track, I'm just pointing something out that may help you to understand the urgency and desperation someone who's gone through all the process feels and experiences.

The turning point to getting all the surgeries was that I absolutely could not, would not, and outright *refused* to continue living one more day in the role of what society wanted me to be. My surgeries were costly in so many ways, financial ruin, extreme physical pain beyond comprehension, social outcast, psychological pain...on top of my chronic depression. But if I had to do it a 1000 times again, I would NOT hesitate one second.

That's the consciousness of what I personally consider a classic transsexual or FTM. There is a trend in the lesbian community to call themselves "FTM" and "trans" because they are very masculine, carry packers, and draw mustaches on with eyeliner. Make no mistake, it is absolutely *not* the same as a true transsexual.

Having said all of the above, I could be way off, completely wrong about you, and you really could just be transitioning in your own unique way. I don't look at myself as male or female. I am a man for simplistic intents and purposes, but in truth I'm neither and so much more beyond that. I just live in the role that fits the most comfortable for me, which is a man. Hope my opinion here has helped you in some way. Feel free to disregard it, if it hasn't.

kind regards :)
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Re: F to M to F? Can Gender Identity Change?

Postby magickpsy » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:23 pm

We're living ghosts.

Forgottenpast wrote:
AZSam wrote:Originally, these thoughts were driven by a desire to not be alone; my parents are elderly and once they're gone, no one I associate with will KNOW me as I truely am: transgender.


OMG - I'm a male-to-female - and I could have written this sentence myself. I've been living and working as a female for nearly 25 years, AND I KNOW SO WELL WHAT YOU MEAN about the 'illusion' of this life. I rarely tell anyone the truth about myself for fear of how this will affect my life: Will I be discriminated against? Will I lose my job? It has happened before, as it's happened with nearly every transsexual I've known who works. It's constant stress and fear of discovery.

I also fear that I'll be completely alone once my parents are gone. I've tried having relationships - with the chasers no less - and as every MtF knows that's generally a deadend.

I, personally, wouldn't want to go back to living as a male, but I have thought of other options.
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