Where we are at...

niva wrote:***MOD EDIT***

Oh, little one, I hope those memories are healed. I hope the bad feelings are rinsed away, and the scars are soothed, and they don't hurt any more.

Do you guys know if there is someone else? Someone younger? A baby maybe?

niva wrote:***MOD EDIT***

Will not. I'll keep talking to you here.

niva wrote:

I was thinking that she might be wanting to connect from someone outside? Could this be? She felt safe in J's arms, so maybe she wants to bond with someone outside?

She is very scared to, very hesitant. Even with J she pretended to be ok, though she was ok when they cuddled. I don't know who, though it's interesting you ask. Earlier today we were watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ANPzoWdRY and wanting to share it with our best friend, who knows about us… but I don't know if it's a good idea… if she'd be willing… Our T of course comes to mind, but I don't know. She's talked to him before without pretending to be ok. She was very honest ad very brave. She told him what she writes here (except the white words; she didn't want to talk about that stuff). He was so good to her. She was so confused. She associates him with being very confused.It is scary on my part too, to let her front with others around, so we're both hesitant. Something to think about/consider, maybe talk to our friend and little n about… Any idea is worth trying!

Humm... It's completely normal to feel hesitant about it. It means opening up, being vulnerable, and that's scary.

The video of Georgie and Sammy was beautiful. I had only seen another old documentary made of MPD (at that time), so seeing them, is amazing, and beautiful. I like what Georgie says about speaking up, and talking about stuff to break the stigma.

Don't feel pressured about letting her front with others around. Do so when you feel comfortable with someone as you did with J. Maybe your best friend would be eager to bond with her as well. You all will decide what's good for you. Aiden surely will give you great insight about it.

niva wrote:Thank you so much for your ongoing support Sea. You are a truly wonderful and amazing person <3

Hey N, I remember one day reading the first entry I read from Jane (at that time). She was brave and scared, but so brave. I guess I bonded with her, and her words, and with you all. I see how much you do for her, how patient you are, how loving. I truly want her to feel better, and to know there's hope, and that she's so worthy, and that she can and is loved, and for her, and thus you all, to heal together. For her to play, and enjoy what littles enjoy, playing, and being mesmerized by nature, and enjoying a safe hug.

So, yup, thank you guys for letting me feel, and experience this with you, for letting me be part of your process, for letting me walk with you, and learn with you.

Take care, sending lots of love.

Sea

Do you guys know if there is someone else? Someone younger? A baby maybe?

Not that we know of; we've never observed the body behaving like a baby, only like a child. Unless it's just a highly dissociated state part or something, but that could just as easily be any one of us dissociating! Memory's before the age of 5, when a person's memory usually starts, are… controversial… but I know it's very real to little n.

Humm... It's completely normal to feel hesitant about it. It means opening up, being vulnerable, and that's scary.

I feel comfortable enough to talk about little n to my best friend - she knows about her and that she's only ever talked to J and our T, but when little n is fronting I tend to talk through her, and just come across as very dissociated, because I am, like yesterday when my roommate came home and I could barely hold a conversation . When little n imagines herself talking to my best friend she just covers her face in shame, wanting to hide and disappear. She did that with J and our T as well at first…

I had only seen another old documentary made of MPD (at that time), so seeing them, is amazing, and beautiful.

Was it this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0LNyXsErb8 I like that documentary, we could especially relate to the first girl - She has an 'Aiden' and a 'niva' and a 'ninchen'/'little n', and I used to be a lot like her.

Aiden surely will give you great insight about it.

I think it's a bad idea. Exposing ourselves is risky, even to the T. It is difficult to discern whether the person secretly thinks we're crazy or lying. I usually pretend to be N when I'm fronting, so as to keep us all safe. Once our switching was extremely obvious, and it provoked confusion in the Ts (N was highly agoraphobic and anxious at the time, so when I came out and spoke for her, saying things she could not, they were shocked). Sonja was the only one who could be herself, as her demeanour was desirable (social and positive), and usually appropriate (though she sometimes came out at the worst times ).

I remember when Aiden spoke for me that time! They were kicking me out of a DBT therapy that I found very helpful, because I didn't fit their BPD box (am not impulsive, reckless, dramatic, etc. Though niva was, lol). We were told to stop self-harming, so we did (we'd just dissociate instead). We weren't 'supposed to' have that kind of 'self-control'. Niva figured out a way around it though. We weren't allowed to discuss anything in the past in the DBT therapy, so she hurt us sexually instead . Anyways, they kicked us out. I was overwhelmed, so Aiden fronted and calmly said 'So building a life worth living doesn't matter if you know how to behave?' (the 'life worth living' was one of the DBT things). The one T in particular was wide eyed, his mouth open in disbelief ; he'd only ever seen me squirming with social anxiety before. (Thank you Aiden! That was awesome!)

niva wrote:Memory's before the age of 5, when a person's memory usually starts, are… controversial… but I know it's very real to little n.

Yes, they are possible specially when they are trauma related. I think I've read Johnny-Jack's posts about it.

niva wrote:

Humm... It's completely normal to feel hesitant about it. It means opening up, being vulnerable, and that's scary.

I feel comfortable enough to talk about little n to my best friend - she knows about her and that she's only ever talked to J and our T, but when little n is fronting I tend to talk through her, and just come across as very dissociated, because I am, like yesterday when my roommate came home and I could barely hold a conversation . When little n imagines herself talking to my best friend she just covers her face in shame, wanting to hide and disappear. She did that with J and our T as well at first…

I understand. Well, she could be the first one Little n might to with if she wants to, and Aiden and you consider it the best for you all.

niva wrote:

I had only seen another old documentary made of MPD (at that time), so seeing them, is amazing, and beautiful.

Was it this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0LNyXsErb8 I like that documentary, we could especially relate to the first girl - She has an 'Aiden' and a 'niva' and a 'ninchen'/'little n', and I used to be a lot like her.

Yes, that one.

niva wrote:

Aiden surely will give you great insight about it.

I think it's a bad idea. Exposing ourselves is risky, even to the T. It is difficult to discern whether the person secretly thinks we're crazy or lying. I usually pretend to be N when I'm fronting, so as to keep us all safe. Once our switching was extremely obvious, and it provoked confusion in the Ts (N was highly agoraphobic and anxious at the time, so when I came out and spoke for her, saying things she could not, they were shocked). Sonja was the only one who could be herself, as her demeanour was desirable (social and positive), and usually appropriate (though she sometimes came out at the worst times ).

You could weight the pros and cons. You have a point there, so it wouldn't be just any stranger; however, the best friend sounds like someone whom you could trust in this regard.

niva wrote:I remember when Aiden spoke for me that time! They were kicking me out of a DBT therapy that I found very helpful, because I didn't fit their BPD box (am not impulsive, reckless, dramatic, etc. Though niva was, lol). We were told to stop self-harming, so we did (we'd just dissociate instead). We weren't 'supposed to' have that kind of 'self-control'. Niva figured out a way around it though. We weren't allowed to discuss anything in the past in the DBT therapy, so she hurt us sexually instead . Anyways, they kicked us out. I was overwhelmed, so Aiden fronted and calmly said 'So building a life worth living doesn't matter if you know how to behave?' (the 'life worth living' was one of the DBT things). The one T in particular was wide eyed, his mouth open in disbelief ; he'd only ever seen me squirming with social anxiety before. (Thank you Aiden! That was awesome!)

Aiden Rocks!

That is something I don't agree with, to be kicked out for not filling all the boxes, though you felt it was contributing. I believe the self/selves can sense when something positive is helping, and healing, and institutions from the outside, are not the ones to say what is working.

Sea

We have decided to have the white words deleted, because there could be pedophiles and the like reading them.

You could weight the pros and cons. You have a point there, so it wouldn't be just any stranger; however, the best friend sounds like someone whom you could trust in this regard.

We should not trust her best friend. For one, this friend has demonstrated dismissal of another person on the basis that the girl was too quiet. This girl suffered from clinical depression. In addition, the friend has not dealt with her own trauma (a rape that happened 15 years ago).

The best that little n has ever felt was when she was cuddling with J. Little n and I both knew to not trust. People can be manipulative and desperate and contradictory and unpredictable. J was N's thing. I never approved. However, little n felt safe.

I am concerned. N is very likely going to 'get laid' by somebody she only knows through texting and online. Little N cannot be around for any of that, but she may want to be around if there is no sexual activity going on. This is dangerous! If little n is fronting and the person does something sexual to her! But I digress.

The two acceptable steps we could take are showing N's best friend that youtube video of Georgie and Sammy, and if little n could maybe font when the body is in platonic embrace with the best friend. She did that at first with J - only in secret, when eyes were closed and there was silence and no movement. I am skeptical though - I do not want for little n to start wanting something she cannot have…

niva wrote:We have decided to have the white words deleted, because there could be pedophiles and the like reading them.

Your decision, completely; and very much respected and understood.

**** Trigger Warning ***** For stating a difference between pedophiles and abusers.

Not all pedophiles are abusers. As far as I know, 10% of abusers are in fact pedophiles, the other 90% are not. Abusers, are criminals, which may not be interested in children, per sé, but they might lean on abusing children because children protest less.

Pedophiles are people who do feel attracted to children, who may, or may not act on their attraction, who many times they struggle with this attraction.

I went to read the paraphilias forum, here in the psychforum, and although it felt very uncomfortable at the beginning, most entrances are about pedophilia, I found out people supporting one another; and people with very coherent points of view regarding empowering children with information, regarding maturity not only of age, but in other instances, and so on.

So, no, not all pedophiles are abusers.

I'm in no way defending an abuser. I'm completely against anyone surpassing the boundaries of another one, completely against of anyone accessing someone who doesn't understand what's being done to them, who doesn't want it, who is sometimes powerless to express it. I did wanted to express the differences I found out. Differences that stigmatize a part of the population, and leads them to having nowhere to seek help.

**** End Trigger Warning *****

niva wrote:

You could weight the pros and cons. You have a point there, so it wouldn't be just any stranger; however, the best friend sounds like someone whom you could trust in this regard.

We should not trust her best friend. For one, this friend has demonstrated dismissal of another person on the basis that the girl was too quiet. This girl suffered from clinical depression. In addition, the friend has not dealt with her own trauma (a rape that happened 15 years ago).

The best that little n has ever felt was when she was cuddling with J. Little n and I both knew to not trust. People can be manipulative and desperate and contradictory and unpredictable. J was N's thing. I never approved. However, little n felt safe.

I am concerned. N is very likely going to 'get laid' by somebody she only knows through texting and online. Little N cannot be around for any of that, but she may want to be around if there is no sexual activity going on. This is dangerous! If little n is fronting and the person does something sexual to her! But I digress.

The two acceptable steps we could take are showing N's best friend that youtube video of Georgie and Sammy, and if little n could maybe font when the body is in platonic embrace with the best friend. She did that at first with J - only in secret, when eyes were closed and there was silence and no movement. I am skeptical though - I do not want for little n to start wanting something she cannot have…

You have very strong points here, so it is a decision to be made by the three of you. I wish you wisdom to decide whatever is in the best interest of you all.

Sea

Excuse the delay in our responding. N dissociates every time she reads about the pedophile vs abuser. She posted in their forum years ago pleading with them to not act on their desires. One of them started asking her questions about why it was traumatizing if the uncle was gentle, etc. He was completely deluded into thinking that children want it, etc. Her therapist and myself told her to stop posting there, as it was triggering and wouldn't go anywhere. We also didn't want to provide any details or 'tips' by explaining dissociation. Most of the people on that forum were not abusers, had a sense of remorse, etc.

Sonja had a lot of compassion for pedophiles and abusers, with excuses like: 'They didn't mean to hurt you; how sad that they were not only attracted to children, but also had no self-control; how sad that they were filled with such anger and hatred with no healthy way of coping with it; he was just trying to love you, not to hurt you, and he obviously felt intense guilt and fear, considering he killed himself; they obviously had a bad life; etc; etc.'

We do understand the difference between thoughts and behaviours, between pedophiles and sadists.

I am only willing to discourage little n from talking to N's best friend. She doesn't want to anyways. N understands, but still thinks she should try to open up to somebody in our lives. I do not think that such a person exists at this time.

niva wrote:Excuse the delay in our responding.

Not a problem.

niva wrote:N dissociates every time she reads about the pedophile vs abuser.

I'm sorry it was a hard topic to write about.

niva wrote:She posted in their forum years ago pleading with them to not act on their desires. One of them started asking her questions about why it was traumatizing if the uncle was gentle, etc. He was completely deluded into thinking that children want it, etc. Her therapist and myself told her to stop posting there, as it was triggering and wouldn't go anywhere. We also didn't want to provide any details or 'tips' by explaining dissociation. Most of the people on that forum were not abusers, had a sense of remorse, etc.

[*]Italics not in original

That person clearly doesn't know, nor understands that gentleness, doesn't imply acceptance of the action. Being gentle doesn't give anyone permission to invade and abuse a child, nor to cross the boundary of someone who doesn't want, who hasn't allowed, who doesn't understand what's being done on to them. And this is the same if the boundary is crossed to a child, or an adult. Being gentle doesn't mean it's ok.

niva wrote:Sonja had a lot of compassion for pedophiles and abusers, with excuses like: 'They didn't mean to hurt you;

But, they did, and that doesn't justify them. They are still abusers.

niva wrote:how sad that they were not only attracted to children, but also had no self-control;

The first thing that comes to mind, is: "no self-control" is their problem. But as a matter of fact it's everyone's. Their lack of control, affects those who are more vulnerable, and we need to actively give them tools so that they don't act on their desires. I.... I can't work with such people. I just can't accept someone saying that they had no f*cking self-control, and that's why the deeply hurt someone, specially a child.

niva wrote:how sad that they were filled with such anger and hatred with no healthy way of coping with it;

It is sad, doesn't excuse them in any away.

niva wrote:he was just trying to love you, not to hurt you,

Humm... No. That's no love. That's a very f*cked up concept of "love".

niva wrote:and he obviously felt intense guilt and fear, considering he killed himself; they obviously had a bad life; etc; etc.'

I've been thinking that in a situation where where someone hurts someone else, both need to heal. I've been thinking it for minor grievances. In this case, though, it might be true, I have a hard time thinking of a healing path for them. I feel so much anger, to even think about something to help.

niva wrote:We do understand the difference between thoughts and behaviours, between pedophiles and sadists.

It was a hard topic to write for me too. In a different way... Maybe in a mixed way.

niva wrote:I am only willing to discourage little n from talking to N's best friend. She doesn't want to anyways. N understands, but still thinks she should try to open up to somebody in our lives. I do not think that such a person exists at this time.

You guys are right. Little n, not talking to the best friend. If that person doesn't exist, it's safer, and better, to not connect with anyone outside just yet. Maybe one day that person comes. In the mean time, maybe think of something else.

Sea

Just want to say that we are on the same page as you are in response to Sonja's distorted train of thought. She would just give a blank smile (not hearing) when we gave her such responses. She never thought any of our abusers were bad people…

I hope we meet a person who little n feels comfortable opening up to in our lives… or is willing to try with. I do agree that attachment to somebody outside the system could be a key to her healing.

Little n hasn't talked to me, I realize now, since we slept with our FWB the first time. I realize now because she numbs the body, especially down there. I was thinking that there was something physically wrong with the body, because it's been like that in all of our sexual relationships. Except for with J. little n just left during the sex, and I felt and orgasmed every time (except the first time - 7 hours of feeling nothing!). Our FWB was asking us where on our body we felt sensitive and I shrugged, basically told her to be rough… But I want to feel it! I want my body to be sensitive again! I LOVE pleasuring her, how easy it is, and it's frustrating that she can't return the favour. I am not getting anything from little n when I try to talk to her…

niva wrote:Just want to say that we are on the same page as you are in response to Sonja's distorted train of thought. She would just give a blank smile (not hearing) when we gave her such responses. She never thought any of our abusers were bad people…

I've seen people give a blank simle just like Sonja. :/ Not her fault, though.

niva wrote:I hope we meet a person who little n feels comfortable opening up to in our lives… or is willing to try with. I do agree that attachment to somebody outside the system could be a key to her healing.

Agree

niva wrote:Little n hasn't talked to me, I realize now, since we slept with our FWB the first time. I realize now because she numbs the body, especially down there. I was thinking that there was something physically wrong with the body, because it's been like that in all of our sexual relationships. Except for with J. little n just left during the sex, and I felt and orgasmed every time (except the first time - 7 hours of feeling nothing!). Our FWB was asking us where on our body we felt sensitive and I shrugged, basically told her to be rough… But I want to feel it! I want my body to be sensitive again! I LOVE pleasuring her, how easy it is, and it's frustrating that she can't return the favour. I am not getting anything from little n when I try to talk to her…

Maybe little n doesn't feel completely safe yet or hasn't bonded (either she or you) as she did with J, to let you feel instead of protecting you by numbing you. I think that numbness is a way of her protecting you.

Sea

The point of this FWB thing is sex, with no strings attached. I am not ready to attach myself to anybody emotionally. I still miss J too much. It's purely a physical thing, about not being so sexually frustrated. Niva's sex drive in insatiable. My sex drive… I'm not even attracted to the FWB, but her sex drive is like mine, and she doesn't want a relationship either. Aiden has no sex drive. Little n hates sex; she's just a child - of course she does. I just want her to not numb the body. She doesn't need to be there at all. I don't need that kind of protection.

Communication between us is not great atm. Maybe my focus should be reattaining that…

The only thing I've gotten from little n is a few flashbacks of her first experience with women, when the body was 10 or 11? Sonja loved the attention, and little n took whatever Sonja found uncomfortable (i.e. the same thing W's dad did, etc). It wasn't a particularly traumatic experience, but little n hated it of course. We didn't feel anything down there of course…