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Re: Borderline Men

Postby katana » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:28 pm

cboxpalace wrote:I believe a good psychiatrist won't be quick to diagnose bpd, and spending 15 - 20 minutes would be fairly standard. That's why you need a good therapist or psychologist that will work in conjunction with the psychiatrist by providing notes etc. I think the client has to take the initiative to keep notes and provide examples of how their behavior fits the bpd criteria, and take the initiative after some time and ask what their assessment is.


I agree with that - its true for any PD.
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby GirlInterruptedNow » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:19 am

I'm a BPD woman, and I am pretty sure that I was married to a BPD man. I got my behavior under control a few years into the marriage, and particularly when I became a mother....but he didn't, so he was very volatile, and I would shut down to try to get him to stop, and that would make him even more volatile.

I cheated, and I confessed to him eventually, and I got therapy to help me to stop acting out. But it didn't save our marriage because our marriage wasn't worth saving to begin with. Every ugly thing I dislike about myself, I see in him, and I assume, vice versa. And his mom is BPD too (undiagnosed). We are two people who should not have been together.

I think the best kind of person I can be with is someone who is not at all BPD and not at all sociopathic. Someone who is an empath and who has a lot of patience and love to give. I am capable of not hurting others, but I need to be able to love people who won't hurt me. It is a process.

Welcome. I am new here too!
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby Jsundave » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:42 am

After The Fall wrote:I spoke to a professional who solely deals with personality disorders after I was diagnosed with emotionally unstable personality disorder. I asked him why the majority of people that have BPD are apparently female according to literature. He said that most males went undiagnosed with the condition and that the vast majority of them are in the prison system.


It's really sad to me this is the case. It also scares me because I feel like I am being ignored by mental health professionals now but i feel like I am wound up and ready to explode; I feel like i would be a danger to myself/others and it is despicable, in my view, that because of this i would be labelled a 'monster' or whatever by society at large.
I don't understand why when I tell mental health professionals this they don't even bat an eyelid. It's like shouldn't this warrant some kind of further assesment or concern. It feels like a timebomb and these people will, in my view, be partly responsible if something happens because I told them.
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby Jsundave » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:08 am

MadMage wrote:
He said that most males went undiagnosed with the condition and that the vast majority of them are in the prison system.

Hah. That's... encouraging.

I'm probably lucky for the 'avoidant' tendencies I have as well as drugs being a trigger for me; I've been charged with battery once [not convicted, thank God] but most of the time I backed down from fights or conflict despite wanting so badly to stand and beating myself up for it later. Not that I haven't daydreamed some pretty interesting revenge plots for those who 'got in my way'... *shrug*

I am the same in terms in of backing down. I think I am often quite passive aggressive and, usually men, who notice this and are more overtly aggressive get pissed. But then the humungous fragility underneath my behaviour comes out and I back down/apologise and feel like $#%^. Maybe it is my responsibility to get treatment for myself if an inept system does not recognise my issues. Rather than than end up dead or in prison.
I think the feelings are exactly the same but the expression of them is much different. From my point of view a lot of my with holding is internal because of shame and attitudes but also it is reflected from those outside. I really get frustrated and upset that, because I am not overdosing left and right or haven't done anything obvious, I am not regarded as any kind of anything. I cannot tell if my psychiatrist doesn't believe me/doesn't know/thinks but won't say or whatever else.. I am really losing my patience with a system that tries to deal with problems for pennies and will only listen when it is so dire and way more expensive to treat.
In the UK it costs £50k/year for an inmate. It costs about £2000/day for inpatient hospital care, surely catching some people early would save money and increase economic contributions. Don't know what it's like in the US but it seems to me, if you have insurance, to be far better than here.
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby katana » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:06 pm

GirlInterruptedNow wrote:I think the best kind of person I can be with is someone who is not at all BPD and not at all sociopathic. Someone who is an empath and who has a lot of patience and love to give. I am capable of not hurting others, but I need to be able to love people who won't hurt me. It is a process.


If that's what you need to do for yourself then you're right, that is something you have to do. It takes more than a person not hurting you for things to be right for you - you have to feel the relationship is right for you and feel loved too. I'm sure there are people here who will be sad if that means they lose you as a friend, but I'm also sure they'd want you to do whatever it is you need to do.

Jsundave wrote:It's really sad to me this is the case. It also scares me because I feel like I am being ignored by mental health professionals now but i feel like I am wound up and ready to explode; I feel like i would be a danger to myself/others and it is despicable, in my view, that because of this i would be labelled a 'monster' or whatever by society at large.
I don't understand why when I tell mental health professionals this they don't even bat an eyelid. It's like shouldn't this warrant some kind of further assesment or concern. It feels like a timebomb and these people will, in my view, be partly responsible if something happens because I told them.


I relate to some of that - I don't care how people would label me, that side of things would probably make me laugh but I don't fancy losing my freedom. I'm sure people would be partly responsible if anything did go wrong for you, proving that is another thing. I'd be laughing at them if it did happen because I know they have to live with themselves. But even with all that I'd still rather find another way because life lasts longer than that and I'm not here to waste it all on a moment if i can help it.

Jsundave wrote:Maybe it is my responsibility to get treatment for myself if an inept system does not recognise my issues. Rather than than end up dead or in prison.
I think the feelings are exactly the same but the expression of them is much different. From my point of view a lot of my with holding is internal because of shame and attitudes but also it is reflected from those outside. I really get frustrated and upset that, because I am not overdosing left and right or haven't done anything obvious, I am not regarded as any kind of anything. I cannot tell if my psychiatrist doesn't believe me/doesn't know/thinks but won't say or whatever else.. I am really losing my patience with a system that tries to deal with problems for pennies and will only listen when it is so dire and way more expensive to treat.
In the UK it costs £50k/year for an inmate. It costs about £2000/day for inpatient hospital care, surely catching some people early would save money and increase economic contributions.


As far as the system and costs are concerned, of course catching PD before things escalate out of control is a way of saving money, for all PDs not just BPD, but its money spent now to save money in the long run - spend 100k on intensive inpatient treatment for a person now + whatever stepdown and rehabilitation would be needed, and not only will they not rely on the government for far more than that in benefits in the future but they will begin to contribute tax, as well as social capital in the form of using their experience to benefit others.

I'd be prepared to give it a go if they were willing to help me try. I tried on my own, on my own turned out not to be good enough. Either I get help or i find my own way. Slightly different outcomes, maybe neither of them all bad, and maybe they come together at the end, who knows.

Well, responsibility aside I guess its a very simple dillemma:

Do you need help? Are they going to help you? Regardless of responsibility, right or wrong etc, can you recognize you need to get yourself that help and that it may be within your power?

If it is, do whatever you need to do to get it for yourself - even if that means finding ways to work around that communication problem, linked to gender expectations or not. This thread is right about those things not being helpful, but whether the world is right or wrong, the first person you have to help is yourself.

Get PALS/advocacy if you can, get others to help you get it. Bite the bullet and enlist help from people in mental health centres even if they are full of people drooling into their coffee - you don't have to hang around in there if you don't want to, and you're not buying into an identity or a lifestyle you're making use of available help.

Its not about whether its right or wrong or there it is responsibility or not, its just about what is. If you can find a way to ask for what you need, do it, and let whoever is helping you speak out for how your needs are not being met. Sometimes you have to let go of what you need (to not be let down) to be able to get what you need.
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby ajr8 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:41 am

Jsundave wrote:
After The Fall wrote:I spoke to a professional who solely deals with personality disorders after I was diagnosed with emotionally unstable personality disorder. I asked him why the majority of people that have BPD are apparently female according to literature. He said that most males went undiagnosed with the condition and that the vast majority of them are in the prison system.


It's really sad to me this is the case. It also scares me because I feel like I am being ignored by mental health professionals now but i feel like I am wound up and ready to explode; I feel like i would be a danger to myself/others and it is despicable, in my view, that because of this i would be labelled a 'monster' or whatever by society at large.
I don't understand why when I tell mental health professionals this they don't even bat an eyelid. It's like shouldn't this warrant some kind of further assesment or concern. It feels like a timebomb and these people will, in my view, be partly responsible if something happens because I told them.


I believe you live in the UK, but the common assumption that BPD is a female illness is widely held in the USA too. One thing I've noticed on this forum is that people here are very self aware of their borderline symptoms and they seem to want to be diagnosed and it would appear many have trouble with it either because of a reluctant pdoc or therapist, or in the case of men, they are not correctly diagnosed borderline because they are male.

I think it's ignorant that men with BPD go undiagnosed due to gender bias. Although if your symptoms escalate or remain consistent over time and you have access to mental health care services, there is bound to be at least one person who will see your disorder for what it really is. I am also a male and had been diagnosed as antisocial in my late teens, partly from developing substance abuse which may have contributed to my behavior problems going out of control. Then a year later I repeated the same pattern where my behavior went out of control due to alcohol abuse but the second time someone actually diagnosed me borderline because I had the symptoms underneath the obvious alcohol problem.

You just need a proper assessment but if you feel like a walking time bomb I take that as a statement that you feel you are in serious trouble and could hurt yourself or someone else. I don't see how any responsible psychologist or doctor could not take that seriously and at least assess you further or suggest some sort of treatment implement. I suggest keep contacting more people in the mental health field until you find someone who agrees to listen to you, just remember that they usually focus on your symptoms themselves rather than your diagnosis, which they may keep flexible so they can observe the course of your treatment over time.
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby MadMage » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:29 am

ajr8 wrote:You just need a proper assessment but if you feel like a walking time bomb I take that as a statement that you feel you are in serious trouble and could hurt yourself or someone else. I don't see how any responsible psychologist or doctor could not take that seriously and at least assess you further or suggest some sort of treatment implement. I suggest keep contacting more people in the mental health field until you find someone who agrees to listen to you, just remember that they usually focus on your symptoms themselves rather than your diagnosis, which they may keep flexible so they can observe the course of your treatment over time.

I once told a doctor that I was thinking of hurting myself and others a lot lately... and he said, "well, I have a legal obligation to take action - go make an appointment with this guy"; the psychiatrist in question wanted $500 to walk in the door because my copay sucked... and couldn't see me for a month anyway. Walked out and... that was it. I mean, I get that we have to help ourselves but is there a reason it need to be so difficult/expensive to do so?
"We think too much and feel too little" -Charlie Chaplin
Avoidant Borderline Personality: I'd ask if you care, but I'd rather avoid the issue. Or... would I?
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby katana » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:30 am

I told a dr there was a risk (in general rather than directly) recently and asked for the right to be in touch with services to make a crisis plan, and he said, "well there isn't really anything I can do." Maybe I'll go back and pretend to be stupid and have forgotten, and tape it next time. :lol:
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby ajr8 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:03 pm

MadMage wrote:I once told a doctor that I was thinking of hurting myself and others a lot lately... and he said, "well, I have a legal obligation to take action - go make an appointment with this guy"; the psychiatrist in question wanted $500 to walk in the door because my copay sucked... and couldn't see me for a month anyway. Walked out and... that was it. I mean, I get that we have to help ourselves but is there a reason it need to be so difficult/expensive to do so?


I think there is a lot of misunderstanding of men with BPD. I think they are unduly categorized as dangerous or violent based on things they say, such as saying they have thoughts of hurting others or talking about hurting others. It doesn't mean they have actually done it or are seriously going to, they just might think about it or talk about it out of frustration or to shock people in an emotional vampire sort of way. I think because we are unstable, we don't always think before making statements and people take them seriously and we don't accurately grasp the reactions we get from being provocative. So therapists overreact and try to make us see specialists or they do abusive things. I've been hospitalized against my will and had my doctor/patient confidentiality rights broken because my former pdoc overreacted to things I said to her.

There really isn't much protection for male borderlines, both in the legal system and mental health system.
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Re: Borderline Men

Postby interestedinlearning » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:05 am

[/quote]
I really get frustrated and upset that, because I am not overdosing left and right or haven't done anything obvious, I am not regarded as any kind of anything. I cannot tell if my psychiatrist doesn't believe me/doesn't know/thinks but won't say or whatever else.. I am really losing my patience with a system that tries to deal with problems for pennies and will only listen when it is so dire and way more expensive to treat.
In the UK it costs £50k/year for an inmate. It costs about £2000/day for inpatient hospital care, surely catching some people early would save money and increase economic contributions. Don't know what it's like in the US but it seems to me, if you have insurance, to be far better than here.[/quote]

I absolutely agree that the prison system is pretty inept. And the US healthcare system is good provided you have healthcare but so many Americans don't and are stuck without any form of healthcare-at least you have the NHS. You can also go private in the UK if you're concerned you're not getting good enough treatment.

I also took issue with several issues of "the system" but it wasn't helping me get better. I had to take responsibility for my own actions, keep fighting and persevering to get good treatment, dusting myself after a failed treatment attempt and keep going. Also, learning from previous mistakes is a good idea too-don't just think "oh I failed there"-analyse it and see if you can learn anything going forward. For example, I realised that I was very stubborn so that was making me hard to treat as a consumer in the mental health system. I didn't realise that at the time, of course, but now I'm more willing to put the work into recovery and give everything a go, even if I don't like it. Willingness is really the main thing-once you have that, things start to click in place because it gives you the initiative to try new behaviours without being prompted or cajoled to all the time and it gives you the inner motivation to recover.

I would also recommend being 100% honest with your psychiatrist-don't be closed or guarded. The psychiatrist isn't a mind reader, they can't automatically tell that there's anything wrong with you. I'm quite articulate so I present really well to medical professionals-I've been to GPs and felt they haven't taken me seriously at times, that they didn't realise how badly I was suffering. Ithink the logic there, is that "well if they're this articulate, then they mustn't be that bad" plus GPs only really have 5-10 minutes per patient so they don't have the time to analyse. Same with psychiatrists-they only keep patients (I think they call them "consumers" though) for 15-20 minutes which is not a lot of time so you have to help them out and make their jobs easier. Both GPs and psychiatrists have a huge backlog of patients to get through each day so they simply don't have the time to ask the patient a long list of questions, it has to be fairly quick in duration. So, my point is, you HAVE to go into the nitty gritty stuff, the embarassing details that you don't want to tell anyone, like suicidal thoughts, self-destructive behaviour etc. I used to think "oh but that doesn't matter, why do they need to know?" but of course a gp and/or psychiatrist needs to know every detail in order to make an accurate diagnosis.

It is hard, I'm not going to deny that, but you are capable of recovering. You seem to be a smart and articulate person, judging from your posts so you absolutely have the capability.
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