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Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

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Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby delljoy » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:41 am

I'm just coming out of a traumatic 3 and a half year relationship with a borderline man. I'm pretty down on myself at the moment, wondering how I attracted him in the first place, how I allowed everything to happen, as well as coping with the real pain of missing him.
I don't know if it will make me feel better. But are borderlines capable of love, that real punch in the chest type love? Our relationship was amazingly intense at times, and I'm wondering how he cannot miss these good times. I'm not delusional, I'm intelligent, pragmatic, down to earth......but DID HE REALLY LOVE ME? I think on some weird level it will make me feel better, comfort me if I knew he genuinely loved me, and was feeling part of what I'm feeling now.
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby Squeekerz » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:03 am

I have loved, really loved 4 men that I have dated. I still DO love them, but I am actually a little abnormal in the fact that I do not ever really split anyone black. I do know that I jerked two of them around a lot. The more recent ones, actually. I wonder if that means my BPD was getting worse as the years progressed....

In any case, yes, I am quite capable of real love, but it IS very hard sometimes to distinguish when it is love or when it is just infatuation. I was convinced I loved a few other people, but I didn't. However, I was not in long-term relationships with those people (actually I never even spoke a word to someone I was convinced I loved).

I am tired and scatterbrained, so I apologize if I"m not making much sense, or even helping at all. Urrrghhh.

Ummmm... so yeah... I jerked around 2 of the men I loved... running back and forth between them... trying to push them away while still clinging hopelessly to them at the same time. It was a very awkward and contradictory way to act, and I know it was always so very hard. I finally have tried a lot of self-reflection and thinking, and have started to attempt and have a REAL relationship. Looking back on it... none of my relationships were ever deep, commited ones. That's actually really sad....
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby Simon Attwood » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:07 am

Firstly; how do you know he is "Borderline"? Has he been professionally "diagnosed", or is this a label you have chosen for him because your relationship turned sour and involved conflict and in your need to understand it in simple terms you have found "Borderline" suits your purpose. Sorry to seem harsh, but people seem to throw these labels about too much here, I feel.

I do understand your pain. I am sure most of us have been through the need to understand why a relationship went south on more than one occasion. I know I have, and I did just what you appear to be doing; tried to find a label for it.

It's more important to understand the mechanisms involved, rather than finding a label that fits. The mechanisms of dysfunctional behaviour cross the boundaries imposed on the labels, to some extent invalidating the labels in my opinion.

So to answer your question:-

If we take the pattern of behaviour in relationships that a borderline is most famous for, as depicted in such works as "I Hate You, don't leave me", "Sometimes I Act Crazy; Living With Borderline Personality Disorder", "Stop Walking on Eggshells", "The Stop Walking on Eggshells Workbook", etc. (incidently, the latter is co written by a fellow called James Paul Shirley, whom i have the pleasure of calling a friend, and we have had one or two discussions on this and many other similar topics). the pattern follows, thus;

The "Idealisation phase"; The "BPD" actively seeks and pursues the relationship. They're intense, almost manic in their work to achieve the relationship. They're seductive and want you approval, your worship, your devotion

The Intermediate Phase; conflicts begin, devaluations, criticisms. They switch between being clingy to being confrontational and “nit picking”. This can go on for weeks, months, or even years.

The Hater Phase; The full “Fight or Flight phase”, they appear to want to destroy you yet, in their eyes they will be the victim and you are the one doing the hurting and they will do everything to try to make this “fantasy” appear real.

So in essence, what you have is someone that desperately wants to love and be loved, but yet seems compelled to destroy all relationships? Why? Well let’s try and join the dots ...

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/sympto ... -disorder/

As with all personality disorders, the person must be at least 18 years old before they can be diagnosed with it.

So does Borderline Personality Disorder just appear when we turn 18? No it doesn’t. So what is it before 18? Well we seem to want to call it “RAD” (Reactive Attachment Disorder). In fact if you read enough about “RAD” it is suggested that if “RAD” is not treated at an early age, it can go on and develop in to; Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Bipolar, and so on .. So what is “RAD”? and what causes “RAD”?

“RAD” (according to WIKI) is supposedly a relatively uncommon disorder (yeah right”!!).

Symptoms include:

•Intense control battles, very bossy and argumentative; defiance and anger
•Resists affection on parental terms
•Lack of eye contact, especially with parents - will look into your eyes when lying (also a symptom of Autistic Spectrum Disorders?)
•Manipulative - superficially charming and engaging (Narcissistic Qualities?)
•Indiscriminately affectionate with strangers (seeking love and acceptance; BPD?)
•Poor peer relationships
•Steals (ASPD?)
•Lies about the obvious
•Lack of conscience - shows no remorse (ASPD again?)
•Destructive to property, self and/or others (and again, ASPD?)
•Lack of impulse control
•Hypervigilant/Hyperactive
•Learning lags/delays
•Speech and language problems (ASD again?)
•Incessant chatter and/or questions
•Inappropriately demanding and/or clingy (BPD again?)
•Food issues - hordes, gorges, refuses to eat, eats strange things, hides food (Anorexia, Bulimia, Binge Eating & addictions?)
•Fascinated with fire, blood, gore, weapons, evil (ASPD?)
•Very concerned about tiny hurts but brushes off big hurts

This comes from here; http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/Sympt ... search.htm

The bit in brackets are my comments.

The generally accepted cause of “RAD” as suggested by Bowlby, Shore, et al; is a significant disruption or stressful experience in the emotional attachment of baby and caregiver(s). Whether it is from abuse, abandonment, neglect, experiencing parental conflicts, or any other instability or stressful experience during early development.

So back to the “Borderline” relationship pattern; you have someone that wants to be loved, to be “attached”, but somewhere deep in their unconscious emotional memory that very attachment that is desired so much has established itself in the autonomous defence system and is experienced as a threat to survival, a danger. And when real feelings threaten to invade the person’s being, the autonomous nervous system initiates a defence against something that, due to previous experience, it perceives as a mortal danger. The pattern is revealed in it’s true form; the “Borderline wants to love and be loved, but that love is automatically interpreted as a danger that needs to be attacked and escaped from, by the primitive structures of the brain.

Hopefully, I have gone some way to explain, why these “labels”, these “boxes”, The very taxonomy of diagnosis that the Kraepelinian heritage presented to the DSM series, are not so divisibly separated as so many people interpret them to be (These people should read the first few pages of DSM IV TR very carefully), but are entwined and interconnected, like the branches of a tree are to its trunk and the trunk to its roots. The roots lie in both genetic and developmental influences. Influences that are not dichotomously opposed, but rather entwined and accumulative, very much like the roots of my allegorical tree.

http://www.bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a101.htm
http://sycofx.wordpress.com/

"From the highest person to the lowest person, self-development must be deemed the root of all, by every person. If this root is neglected, what grows from it cannot be well-ordered." Confucius
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby albert_mistrall » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:16 am

ofc somone with bpd is capable of real love, i loved my ex so much and still do with her it wasnt infatuation, it is still hard nearly one year on.


i miss the way we were so compatible, and i hate that my ishues that stopped me getting work that eventualy got her down.
she wasnt all good or all bad, but to me she was my best freind, the girl that eaven through my problems gave me the spirit to get up every day and move forward.

i miss the times, the memories of the times we were together, i truly wanted to make a life with her for us, and i thought that was going to happen.

but i understand that im a hard person to be with at times, but she was no angell her self lol, but that didnt matter. because i could see the good in her and exept the bad.
she was strong, intelegent, had tereble dress sence and had self asteam ishues, but she still got on with things, and didnt ushaly let it get her down, and if i could i would help her with her problems and she would help me with mine too when i felt it hard to pick my self up.

but when she took medication and her self ateam ishues went, she no longer could deal with my ishues and left.

i was and still am truly heart broken over it, and i miss her terebly, but for me when i see her it hurts too much.
when she left i tryed to fix my self, so that we could have the life that i think we both wanted, but i found out that i had bpd.
and after that i desided that i couldnt make her happy and had to let her go, so she could be happy in the long run.
if that isnt love then i dont know what love is.
but to me, it is love.
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby delljoy » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:27 am

No its not a label.....he is definitely borderline....has most of the symtoms.....was originally diagnosed with bi-polar but that never really fit. Is a survivor of the worst kind of abuse as a child imaginable....has being in and out of therapy for the last thirty years but managed to presuade most of his therapists that they were the crazy ones....his words not mine. He has never had a relationship lasting longer than 5 years, never been married, has a history of 'running away' from relationships...even leaving all his belongings behind. Has 'hoovered' me for the last nearly 4 years. Is the most intelligent man I know but has never had a career, never stayed in any one job for more than a couple of years. He was also given a diagnosis of being a sociapath years ago....but that doesn't quite fit...he does seem to have a conscence. He doesn't know who he is. He becomes what his latest favourite person wants him to be.....like he became the 'ideal' partner to me, but he couldn't keep the pretense up continually and would resolt to anger and destructive behaviour and 'emotionally' disconnect from me. He would on average spend one to two weeks loving me, being the perfect partner to me, then would spend the next two to three weeks hating me, ignoring me, running away from.....if this isn't borderline....I will eat my hat....
I don't put labels on people, it is not sour grapes....I was partly instrumental in ending the relationship...
Read my other posts and learn the true extend of his illness, and how I have not given up on him but have honestly been trying to 'heal' him with my love and support him as much as I could.
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby albert_mistrall » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:52 am

im curious, dont feel you need to ancer this though.

why did you love him and stay with him so long?
was it that you hoped that you could fix him or tht he would become better or did you truly love him (im not disputing anything just curious)

i only ask this because i always try to fix my self and never seem to be able to. and it seems to no matter how hard i try, the people i love leave because i cant give them the house, garden ect that they dream off,, also what i dream of, so that sux.
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby delljoy » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:59 am

I don't know why I stayed, don't know why I loved him....still do.....I'm an educated woman, with an amazing well paid job, attractive and well adjusted.....or so I thought. Before I met him I had very strict guidlines of the sort of man I wanted to meet. Then I met him and everything flew out the door.....he blew me away. He was charismatic, interesting, his mind worked in a totally different way to mine....I'm logical and and down to earth....he relies on luck, and the stars and the crystals and angels....he seemed to have so much knowledge on things that I had no knowledge on. That first night we met we talked none stop for 7 hours, no alcohol, just our conversation and then we fell into bed and had the most amazing sex ever. And it was like that for the next 3 weeks....I got home from work, went to his, we talked and loved and more talking and more loving.....very intense.....then he ran me up telling me I was needy and he hated me and he dumped me....and I didn't here from him for 2 weeks, then he sent me a text message in the middle of the night....'who are you shagging now.....I miss you'...I was so confused and wanting to know what had happened so went to see him....and we were back on again with the same intencity, and the pattern continued.....we had a period of 8 months of relative stability. When I questioned him on his running away....he always said he couldn't understand what my problem was he always came back to me...I know he was like this with previous partners also.
i'm a nurse and a nurturer.....I saw the pain and darkness in his eyes and I wanted to heal him....in my arrogance I thought I could.....he said he felt saner with me in his life.....but I think he was just saying what he felt I wanted to hear and just doing what I wanted him to do. When he was 'into me', he made me feel like the most wonderful, beautiful woman in the world and sometimes he would cling onto me almost desparately in the middle of the night. I had so many red flags during my time with him, even his ex g/fs warning me off, but I thought I was different, that I was the one to precipitate the change in him, and he led me to believe that he thought that too....
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby ShakyCore » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:40 pm

delljoy wrote:i'm a nurse and a nurturer.....I saw the pain and darkness in his eyes and I wanted to heal him....in my arrogance I thought I could.....he said he felt saner with me in his life.....but I think he was just saying what he felt I wanted to hear and just doing what I wanted him to do. When he was 'into me', he made me feel like the most wonderful, beautiful woman in the world and sometimes he would cling onto me almost desparately in the middle of the night. I had so many red flags during my time with him, even his ex g/fs warning me off, but I thought I was different, that I was the one to precipitate the change in him, and he led me to believe that he thought that too....


He probably did think that too… only, he probably thinks that about every new woman in his life. 10 girlfriends down the line he'll probably still be convinced that THIS one is different from all the others and special and THE one who can make it all better... and he'll worship her accordingly.

Everyone wants and even needs to feel special and be worshipped to some extent… sometimes I can't help but wonder if some of those who are attracted to us don't have a stronger need for that then others.
Gratitude can heal most wounds.

(What can I say… I don't like the word "all")
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby delljoy » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:58 pm

Maybe I am arrogant but for some reason I don't think he did about other women or not to such an extent....in some aspects his pattern was different with me. He tried to avoid a relationship with me, rather than jumping in head first like he did with his other g/fs. He realised I was inciteful and had some understanding. One of the first things he said to me, was you don't want to have a relationship with me, I'm not good at relationships...He gave up smoking and dope for me...both of which he had done for over thirty years....I dunno maybe he gave up other things for his other women, or chnaged in some way....I just know how dark, angry and hurt he was when I met him, and how much lighter and 'cleaner' he was later in the relationship. Other people commented on it too.....maybe I had brought him as far as he was able to go....and the rest is a solo ride for him???
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Re: Are borderlines capable of love, real love?

Postby Simon Attwood » Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:10 pm

delljoy wrote: No its not a label.....he is definitely borderline....has most of the symtoms


Whether it is a layperson, or a qualified psychologist/psychiatrist using the term as correctly or incorrectly diagnosed, it is still a label. That was my point.

you say he has "most of the symptoms". That sounds a bit like "doesn't quite fit" to me.

delljoy wrote: .....was originally diagnosed with bi-polar but that never really fit.

delljoy wrote: He was also given a diagnosis of being a sociapath years ago....but that doesn't quite fit.


Hmmmm :)

Perhaps you should go back and read the bit about mechanisms and root causes again :)
http://sycofx.wordpress.com/

"From the highest person to the lowest person, self-development must be deemed the root of all, by every person. If this root is neglected, what grows from it cannot be well-ordered." Confucius
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