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stubborn and untreatable

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stubborn and untreatable

Postby ElKahn » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:27 pm

I had my 3rd psychotherapy session today. I'm stubborn. I just can't get myself to think that it is possible for me to actually change. And do I really want it? First, my therapist sounds invalidating. She repeats too much on "you don't have to do this, you have to do that" without giving me the proper ways to actually do that. She sounds unprofessional. Sometimes I feel like she wants to impose things, and I hate when someone tells me what to do. I don't know, I might just be weird but I feel invalidated again. And I'm stubborn. Very stubborn.

Are we really untreatable?
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby jaus tail » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:47 pm

even i dont like to be told what to do unless the person gives me a reason. i'm fine with logic and i've read an ayn rand quote on the internet...

To deal with men by force is as impractical as to deal with nature by persuasion.

unless someone tells me why do i have to change, it's of no use

what does your therapist want you to change?

there are no absolutes

eg. people say that anger is wrong but at times anger is justified. if someone tries to say dirt to my child, i will be angry at him.
if someone slaps me, i wouldnt be nice to the person

many people say that depression is a waste of energy and sign of weakness but quite often its an appropriate reaction. like if i am diagnosed with some ailment that will give me too much physical pain, i will be sad about it

people have always told me to socialize but that's something i will always regret.

so when your therapist tells you to change, then perhaps she could also be wrong. cant say until i know what does she want you to change?
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby ElKahn » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:22 pm

The black and white thinking, for example. That's what we discussed about today.

And the clingy part of me.

I don't know, I don't like the way she's handling the situation.
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby xfa » Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:38 pm

ElKahn wrote:The black and white thinking, for example. That's what we discussed about today.

And the clingy part of me.

I don't know, I don't like the way she's handling the situation.

Lots of psychogolists/psychiatrists actually can't deal with our contradicting statements. I was causing frowns in the sessions I had with my last psychiatrist. Example: "Did you have a happy childhood?" I couldn't give an appropriate answer to that. I told him of lots of happy times and concluded that I had a happy childhood. Then I told him about lots of unhappy times and concluded that my childhood sucked. We got stuck (in other areas we had similar issues) and the only thing that he could do was suggest hospitalization (or in other words: he gave up)....Some of them just can't deal with our black and white thinking.

Anyways, when you feel uncomfortable or invalidated (and that is something you feel quite strongly), then you should just look for somebody else. There has to be some sort of chemistry so you can build trust and if that isn't possible then it's not worth bothering IMO.
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby jaus tail » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:56 am

what i've realized is that at times the clingy behavior is acceptable

most parents are clingy towards children, i've seen people be clingy towards pets...some people are clingy towards a diamond necklace, some women are clingy towards a fur coat, some are clingy towards celebrities(with the whole craziness for movie/tv stars), some people are super defensive about their religion

so at times its ok to be clingy but maybe its not healthy. like there's a cat in the park near my apartment and whenever i go to the park, i pet the cat. i sit on a bench, the cat sits besides me and i cuddle it and it's ok

what helped me is counting to 10...whenever i feel the urge to call someone or act like a child/curl up into a ball, i count to 10 and then see if i still have the urge

in fact now i count to 10 before many acts. it gives time to the rational mind to come into picture

about black and white thinking...try to see acts/people are healthy or unhealthy. a person may be great but if he's treating me like a jerk, then he's unhealthy for me

seeing folks as healthy or unhealthy helps me a lot...

when a doctor asks, 'how was your childhood?' it would be hard to sum it up in one sentence. it's not like, 'which sport did you play?' that you can have an objective answer.

many of us have had both memorable and unfortunate experiences as a child. my english teacher was super arrogant but he was also very good in english and had a good style in teaching.
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby youneverreallyknow » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:49 am

ElKahn wrote:She repeats too much on "you don't have to do this, you have to do that" without giving me the proper ways to actually do that.


ElKahn wrote:The black and white thinking, for example. That's what we discussed about today.

And the clingy part of me.

I don't know, I don't like the way she's handling the situation.


I find people who don't think in black and white have a really hard time understanding it. Psychologists can generally get it from a theory point of view, but of course probably don't do it themselves, so don't understand how hard it is to overcome it.

If I'm interpreting it right, the therapist is just using a CBT like way of making you challenge your thoughts. Like saying, if someone upset you and you now hate them, why don't you try questioning that thinking and doing it in way "xyz". If that is on the mark, I find it hard/impossible to make that work too. Black and white thinking isn't driven by logic, but by emotion, so it's hard to use CBT style thought challenging.

It's really hard to overcome and I'm sorry you felt invalidated. Does the therapist have a particular approach they are using? I've done mostly DBT and it helps a bit because it gives you some tools to try to get into the middle ground or the grey area. It doesn't always work, but it kind of gives you a method to actually do it.
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby blank identity » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:27 am

Who's to say there is anything wrong with the way we are? I think if it causes US enough distress then it might be worth pursuing treatment. But otherwise? If you can be happy with what you are, who gives a f*ck what others think?

A society that likes to preach diversity and acceptance yet expects you to conform to THEIR views and expections. To me it is hypocritical and I immediately devalue them and they lose credibility with me.

I've lived my whole life being so swayed by the opinions of others. And getting rather tired of it. I'm starting to think it's not my behavior, but expectations others have of me that has caused me the most distress.

Now if I could just deal with the shame and sensitivity and worrying so much what others think (linked to the shame which is linked to the sensitivity), then I'm golden.

I don't think I really want to change. I've come to that point in my introspection and realization in my own life.

It's easy to say f*ck what everyone thinks, far more difficult to put into practice. But internally, that's how I feel and I'm accepting it. Slowly.

One thing I have learned is that truth is not always absolute. It is more often relative and based upon OTHER people's own perspectives and opinions. Everyone has their own opinions and who is to say they are more right than I am? Especially when I know myself far better than they do.

People like to make assumptions and judgements. Doesn't make them always right. In my case, I think learning to accept that I am the way that I am is just how I am. Nothing wrong or good about it either way. Just is. Not everyone will approve. So f*ck them.

Now if I could just take my own advice and actually put it into practice... :roll:
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby salted lipstick » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:32 pm

ElKahn wrote:I just can't get myself to think that it is possible for me to actually change. And do I really want it?
What sent you to go and get psychotherapy? Presumably there was something about yourself/the way you think/something else that made you decide you wanted some help? Going to your therapy would imply a desire to not continue to do/think etc whatever it is that you are not happy with that sent you to therapy in the first place, and the only way to not continue to do something you aren't happy with is to change. So unless you are being legally forced into therapy and escorted there, the act of you going seems to imply that there is something you are not happy with that has sent you there and that you want to change and believe it is possible in some regard...

ElKahn wrote:She repeats too much on "you don't have to do this, you have to do that" without giving me the proper ways to actually do that. She sounds unprofessional. Sometimes I feel like she wants to impose things, and I hate when someone tells me what to do.
Have you brought up this problem with her? If you feel like she is trying to impose things on you that is important to bring up that you are feeling like that. It will be an important thing to discuss. She might not actually feel like she has anything at all that she wants you to do but your own feelings and beliefs might be causing you to interpret her words as being demanding and imposing, so this would be important to discuss so that either she can adjust her behaviour or she can tell you she doesn't feel like there are things she wants you to do and you can realise that this feeling is something you might be bringing to the relationship.

ElKahn wrote:Are we really untreatable?
I remember a past mod from this forum many many years ago who found that treatment worked wonders for her. So I don't know if it helps to know that at least some BPD people can help their lives heaps from having treatment.

ElKahn wrote:I don't know, I don't like the way she's handling the situation.
Again, this is important to bring up with her. A lot of the way therapy works is by healing through the relationship you have with your therapist.

blank identity wrote:One thing I have learned is that truth is not always absolute. It is more often relative and based upon OTHER people's own perspectives and opinions.
Nice observation. My current therapist always says that the truth (at least in relationships) is actually a construct made up of what the two people bring to the relationship with their interpretations of the other which are based a lot on their own perceptions and past experiences. He says that it's not possible for anyone to fully know another person, however much they might try, because you will always be bringing your own thoughts, feelings, memories and perspectives into an interaction and the interaction is always limited time wise. But we've got to recognise it goes both ways, we bring our own perspectives and reactions to a relationship just as much as the other person does.
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby WendyTorrance » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:01 pm

blank identity wrote:I've lived my whole life being so swayed by the opinions of others. And getting rather tired of it. I'm starting to think it's not my behavior, but expectations others have of me that has caused me the most distress.

It is, but people base their expectations on something.
Usually when people become familiar with each other, it's a process of steadily rising line. Not infrequently and unpredictably-opening doors.
Expect the norm, get something else. Confusion is understandable.
When you don't expect anything, can gain a lot.

I don't know exactly how to implement this thought in practice.
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Re: stubborn and untreatable

Postby SummerLove » Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:35 pm

The short answer: No - everyone who wants to change - will change. (with right help, guidance, determination and time)

The fact that you are seeing a doctor says to me that you do want to change. Maybe the disorder is interfering with your life to the point where you just can't take it. But change is hard. It is the hardest thing to do when your brain is used to a certain way of thinking. Do you feel compassionate towards yourself when you try something new and fail? Do you give yourself time to change?

If the treatment or her approach is making you uncomfortable ask yourself: do i feel resentful because i don't want to get out of my comfort zone, or I'm afraid to change yet I want my life to change, ect. Try to find the reason for your stubbornness.

You already know that if you always do what you've always done - you'll always get what you always got.

I hope this helps - and best of luck!
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