Probabilty of remission and DBT's effects on the brain

Evolution. Most of us are social creatures. Humans are not successful lone wolfs. We depend on the rest of the "tribe" to survive. Before cushy modern times, being left alone was equivalent to being left for dead. You just wouldn't survive. Emotions are still wired for the harsher primitive times.

Hmm...yes and no at the same time, depends on too many factors.

I don't think it's useful if you have BPD. I haven't read the complete thing but I've read excepts and articles written by her. Again, she doesn't know what she's talking about. The woman has a B.A. in communications, meaning she's a moron. But reading it as a person with BPD, it just makes you feel like an awful person who hurts everyone around you and has no hope of recovery.

You may not appreciate it from the BPD perspective, but from the other side of the equation it is quite useful. Whether she is a moron or not, is not the point, but does it work? yes, it does. Recovery is a the responsibility of the pwBPD. But the partner must also back the bus up and leave that on your side of the street to do with what you will or not.

I find that we complain less about other people and more about the pain that we're in. The wah-fest that occurs over there is all about the things that we did to them and how hard it is to put up with us. We talk on here about how awful we feel or how badly we want to get better. It makes all the difference. Needing an outlet to discuss your pain, confusion, and frustration with people who share a mental illness with you is understandable.

And you cannot see the blind spot there....?

AmorousDestruction wrote:

frostfern wrote:Evolution. Most of us are social creatures. Humans are not successful lone wolfs. We depend on the rest of the "tribe" to survive. Before cushy modern times, being left alone was equivalent to being left for dead. You just wouldn't survive. Emotions are still wired for the harsher primitive times.

Meh. That's so reductionist. Why I hate evolutionary psychology- so many claims, so little evidence. There's variation in human personality traits. Women are in general more social, although while I remember an explanation of that based on evolution from an old psych class, I think it's more cultural than universal. I think men are socialized not to show emotion in order to be considered manly.

Of course it's culture, but culture itself is evolutionary. We may not understand it, but things tend to progress a certain way for a reason. Not saying our present culture is ideal, far from it.

Also, with guys the problem isn't the need to be "manly". It seems like a lot of men are just not comfortable with anything emotional. They really just feel awkward, almost afraid. Some seem to not even have the depth of feeling to truly understand. They have a certain box in which they understand things and trying to force them out of it is like beating against a brick wall. Of course there's variety and there are lots of women who are wired more like the male stereotype.

Most animals are social for the same reason you mentioned- packs are stronger and more likely to survive than solitary creatures. But it's honestly more than that. There's a growing amount of research on the importance of social support. Our mental health and our support networks impact our physical health. I don't think you can simplify that down to a process that supports survival via grouping.

I don't think we disagree on anything here.

But that's not really the point of the conversation. I think it depends on the guys in terms of how much support you get from them. Also, there's also the option of making female friends if you find that men in your area don't meet your social needs. My ex made a lot more female friends because he felt like he couldn't relate to other men, especially American men. Also, DBT is more than just awareness of feelings. I'm not describing the complexity of it. To be honest you'd probably have to take a class. I'm not exactly trained in DBT.

It's often more difficult for males to feel comfortable approaching females as friends. There are definitely more boundaries than for a woman to approach another woman. The whole sex thing seems to get in the way. Women don't trust men. We're all potential rapists. I don't think it has to be this way, but our culture is stupid. There's also very black-and-white binary notions as to what separates a "friendship" from a "relationship". I'm asexual, so the boundary is much more of a fuzzy continuum to me. I may want something in the middle.

As for DBT, I haven't had proper DBT so I can't really make a fair judgement. I think my problem is my depression and social isolation is so crippling I can't really deal with anything until those are fixed. As for why I'm socially isolated, I just assume there's something hideously wrong with me. People just don't seem to really reach out to me even if I reach out to them. The constant hustle-and-bustle of modern life also gets in the way of forming bonds once you're out on your own and not in the university setting where young people are allowed to mingle. Over 30 and single = isolation. What most people call friends I would classify as acquaintances.

InSpiritus wrote:You may not appreciate it from the BPD perspective, but from the other side of the equation it is quite useful. Whether she is a moron or not, is not the point, but does it work? yes, it does. Recovery is a the responsibility of the pwBPD. But the partner must also back the bus up and leave that on your side of the street to do with what you will or not.

I may work, but by painting us in an extremely negative light and victimizing us. We have no agency from that perspective. We are simply evil because we were f*cked up in childhood and there's nothing to do about it. I just don't see how that's really helpful. I'd rather the people in my life understand what it's like from me and not see me as devil's spawn. Also, books like this are the reason my mother refused to accept my diagnosis initially. I don't act like a crazy person to her and I've never had behavioral problems. I also don't throw things at her or call her nasty names at the drop of the hat. She knows I have empathy. It simplifies BPD and makes statements about us as if we didn't differ at all. I don't think overall that it's helpful to anyone.

Also you can say that about any personal issue a person has. If they want it fixed, you really can't do it for them. Recovery for any illness takes willpower. I'm not arguing at all that recovery isn't the responsibility of the person with BPD. But making dramatic statements that stigmatize those with BPD doesn't exactly give a caregiver or significant other the tools for an effective, validating environment, does it?

InSpiritus wrote:And you cannot see the blind spot there....?

Nope. Apparently not. Point it out to me.

AmorousDestruction wrote:

InSpiritus wrote:You may not appreciate it from the BPD perspective, but from the other side of the equation it is quite useful. Whether she is a moron or not, is not the point, but does it work? yes, it does. Recovery is a the responsibility of the pwBPD. But the partner must also back the bus up and leave that on your side of the street to do with what you will or not.

I may work, but by painting us in an extremely negative light and victimizing us. We have no agency from that perspective. We are simply evil because we were f*cked up in childhood and there's nothing to do about it. I just don't see how that's really helpful. I'd rather the people in my life understand what it's like from me and not see me as devil's spawn. Also, books like this are the reason my mother refused to accept my diagnosis initially. I don't act like a crazy person to her and I've never had behavioral problems. I also don't throw things at her or call her nasty names at the drop of the hat. She knows I have empathy. It simplifies BPD and makes statements about us as if we didn't differ at all. I don't think overall that it's helpful to anyone.

Also you can say that about any personal issue a person has. If they want it fixed, you really can't do it for them. Recovery for any illness takes willpower. I'm not arguing at all that recovery isn't the responsibility of the person with BPD. But making dramatic statements that stigmatize those with BPD doesn't exactly give a caregiver or significant other the tools for an effective, validating environment, does it?

InSpiritus wrote:And you cannot see the blind spot there....?

Nope. Apparently not. Point it out to me.

Actually, those books and articles about "the evil that BPDs do" was very helpful for me a few years ago. Helped me understand the BPDs in my life, which were all monsters (and they barely got the "symptoms that are bad for them", too).

Like I've said before, some BPDs might be bad occasionally, to specific people or some might not be that bad at all, specially without "good cause" (such as being too distressed). Can't deny there are people out there who fit the diagnosis for BPD and probably served as the inspiration for Satan and other demonic beings thousands of years ago. Different disorder? Same disorder under the prism of different people? Different symptoms for the same disorder? Commorbities? Who knows?

I think it's still useful to talk about and publicize "the evil the BPDs do", as it actually saves lives (for real, IT SAVES LIVES) from monstruous people out there with "this flavor of BPD". I don't think it does a disservice to the condition.

But I do KNOW not every BPD is an azzhole, and this is where the problem lies. I see how people on these boards are trying to get better but feel hostility from others getting in their way of improving. It hurts anyone's feelings and makes people understandably defensive and with their self esteem and pride attacked. Maybe the health and psychiatric boards should just create more names/diagnosis to differentiate the evil BPDs from the ones who aren't so bad.

frostfern wrote:Of course it's culture, but culture itself is evolutionary. We may not understand it, but things tend to progress a certain way for a reason. Not saying our present culture is ideal, far from it.

Also, with guys the problem isn't the need to be "manly". It seems like a lot of men are just not comfortable with anything emotional. They really just feel awkward, almost afraid. Some seem to not even have the depth of feeling to truly understand. They have a certain box in which they understand things and trying to force them out of it is like beating against a brick wall. Of course there's variety and there are lots of women who are wired more like the male stereotype.

Culture isn't evolutionary. I could launch into an entire rant at you about that concept. I have mentioned the anthropological background, which is a discipline that loudly denounces that idea. People still think that way though. In DBT we had a book that said "primitive cultures", in it. I wanted to throw something, but didn't think that would go over very well in therapy. It's typical ethnocentric Western thought, which has been used to justify racism, slavery, and infantilization of developing countries (which relates to their economic systems, not their cultures btw). There's no line from primitive to developed. We just value technology and Western medicine and would prefer to see ourselves as "more evolved". It's repugnant. Going into it any more is going to piss me off and I just finished a memorial service for my family dog and am on the way to a friend's party so I'd rather maintain emotional stability.

But you're saying what I'm saying I think. The idea of being "manly" is conditioned through the expected behavior of men. Women are emotional and hysterical and men are strong and in control of their emotions. It's part of the feminist argument as to why patriarchy and gender stereotypes hurt everyone, not just women. Comfort in terms of showing or discussing emotion has to do with how the emotions of men are seen culturally. They're uncomfortable because it's considered a more feminine thing to do. "You shouldn't need emotional support because you're stronger than that" is the message that most men get.

frostfern wrote:It's often more difficult for males to feel comfortable approaching females as friends. There are definitely more boundaries than for a woman to approach another woman. The whole sex thing seems to get in the way. Women don't trust men. We're all potential rapists. I don't think it has to be this way, but our culture is stupid. There's also very black-and-white binary notions as to what separates a "friendship" from a "relationship". I'm asexual, so the boundary is much more of a fuzzy continuum to me. I may want something in the middle.

It makes me sad that you think women think like that. I'll be afraid if you walk too close behind me at night and I am conditioned to be afraid when I pass groups of men on the street when I'm alone. It wouldn't be that way if more women weren't raped or told that it would be their fault if they were walking alone at night and were raped, not because of culture. However, I'm not afraid of men, even as a rape victim. I can be abused by anyone. I can be sexually assaulted by another woman. Less likely but still possible. I trust people I've met and talked to and I generally think the best of other people and their intentions (unless I'm dating them ), but I don't feel that women on the whole are scared of men.

The boundary can be fuzzy but you can make it clearer if you communicate. My ex actually had had sex with or been on dates with many of his female friends. Met them on OKCupid or something. But when they didn't work out and it became clear that they weren't sexually compatible or going to be great in a relationship (my ex is very picky and kinky), he just became friends with them instead. He's also friends with ex's. But as treacherous as that may seem, it's worked out for him because he's honestly communicated things like "I don't think we'd work well as a couple" to them and been really nice about it. If you make boundaries clear it can work. I have a guy friend who I like. I admittedly haven't had many in my life because I get along better with other women and have had trouble not dating or f*cking the guys I've connected on any level with. But I met him when I was just broken up with and working on therapy. We met through OKCupid and he knew right off the bat that I wasn't interested in anything sexual or romantic. We can talk about personal things and it's really nice. And I've even told him that I find him attractive, but see him as a friend. My ex was kind of a $hit about it and told me that it wouldn't work because of my history, but it has.

frostfern wrote:As for DBT, I haven't had proper DBT so I can't really make a fair judgement. I think my problem is my depression and social isolation is so crippling I can't really deal with anything until those are fixed. As for why I'm socially isolated, I just assume there's something hideously wrong with me. People just don't seem to really reach out to me even if I reach out to them. The constant hustle-and-bustle of modern life also gets in the way of forming bonds once you're out on your own and not in the university setting where young people are allowed to mingle. Over 30 and single = isolation. What most people call friends I would classify as acquaintances.

Look. I get what you're saying. With BPD it's hard not to feel like a freak. I've definitely felt like a loser. It's my birthday soon and I only have 3 friends in the city who I feel close enough to ask to do things with me for my birthday. I've lived there for a year, although most of my time was spent on school, working at sex clubs/going to sex parties, and my relationship. I didn't put any time or effort into making friends. I find that really hard to do. I don't connect easily with other people and like you said it's hard to make friends in a city. I've also moved a lot over the past few years. I don't keep in touch very well and lose contact and closeness with other people easily. I don't feel close to pretty much anyone right now. I don't have someone I trust enough to talk to, except maybe my sister and one friend. I've always had a small number of friends and almost no one I felt comfortable talking emotions with. Connecting with people is hard for me. Part of why I have focused on relationships is because they are the easiest way for me to connect to another person. There's nothing wrong with you. I understand how difficult it can be. Part of DBT actually is working on these things. My therapist calls it "building a life worth living". A good part of my current therapy is working on my life outside of relationships so I have people to feel close to outside of sexual/romantic relationships. She pushes me to socialize and work on feeling better when I'm alone. It's part of what I really like about it. I'd never really thought about how much of my life centered around being in a relationship.

twistednerve wrote:
Actually, those books and articles about "the evil that BPDs do" was very helpful for me a few years ago. Helped me understand the BPDs in my life, which were all monsters (and they barely got the "symptoms that are bad for them", too).

Like I've said before, some BPDs might be bad occasionally, to specific people or some might not be that bad at all, specially without "good cause" (such as being too distressed). Can't deny there are people out there who fit the diagnosis for BPD and probably served as the inspiration for Satan and other demonic beings thousands of years ago. Different disorder? Same disorder under the prism of different people? Different symptoms for the same disorder? Commorbities? Who knows?

I think it's still useful to talk about and publicize "the evil the BPDs do", as it actually saves lives (for real, IT SAVES LIVES) from monstruous people out there with "this flavor of BPD". I don't think it does a disservice to the condition.

But I do KNOW not every BPD is an azzhole, and this is where the problem lies. I see how people on these boards are trying to get better but feel hostility from others getting in their way of improving. It hurts anyone's feelings and makes people understandably defensive and with their self esteem and pride attacked. Maybe the health and psychiatric boards should just create more names/diagnosis to differentiate the evil BPDs from the ones who aren't so bad.

Ugh. God. Do not get into this with me, Julian.

Just because some PwBPD are capable of doing awful things doesn't make it ok to stigmatize all of us. All people are capable of being abusive f*cks. All people are capable of being manipulative. BPD may make you more prone to those behaviors, but it certainly doesn't cause them.

You know what would have saved your life? Not tolerating abuse. Not letting people treat you poorly. What exactly did you need to understand in order to deal with people who were treating you poorly? What exactly did you get from it? Closure or some kind of explanation? Justification for your anger?

Is it worth it to keep people who desperately need it from seeking help? It is worth it to keep people who have BPD and are less destructive from getting a diagnosis? I diagnosed myself and then got an official diagnosis because I discussed my self-diagnosis with a psychologist. I could easily have gone on a number of years longer without getting help or working on myself. I wish I had known sooner, when I sought therapy almost 5 years ago. But no one wants to diagnose BPD because of that stigma. No one realized I had BPD because I wasn't the kind of "evil crazy" that people expect someone with BPD to be.

I'm going to say it again. BPD has a mortality rate of 10%. Do you really think it's worth stigmatizing people who are suicidal or in emotional pain who suffer from a mental illness they did not bring upon themselves? I'm going to be blunt. If I truly believed the people who say that I'm too f*cked up and it's in my nature to hurt people I care about, I would kill myself. I don't want to exist being a monster. It's hard enough to forgive myself for the things that I've done, which in all honesty on the spectrum of $hitty things aren't that $hitty.

It hurts a lot more people with BPD than it helps nons.

AmorousDestruction wrote:Culture isn't evolutionary. I could launch into an entire rant at you about that concept. I have mentioned the anthropological background, which is a discipline that loudly denounces that idea. People still think that way though. In DBT we had a book that said "primitive cultures", in it. I wanted to throw something, but didn't think that would go over very well in therapy. It's typical ethnocentric Western thought, which has been used to justify racism, slavery, and infantilization of developing countries (which relates to their economic systems, not their cultures btw). There's no line from primitive to developed. We just value technology and Western medicine and would prefer to see ourselves as "more evolved". It's repugnant. Going into it any more is going to piss me off and I just finished a memorial service for my family dog and am on the way to a friend's party so I'd rather maintain emotional stability.

I don't think you really understand evolution. It isn't this line "primitive" -> "advanced". Evolution doesn't even know what "primitive" and "advanced" mean. It's all a matter of adaptation to the environment. There's nothing in it that justifies racism. So-called "primitive" cultures were more adapted to their environment. They were more advanced in the sense of being more in equilibrium with the environment.

The main thing that separates modern culture from the past is technology and knowledge. I'd say our culture hasn't adapted very well to our technological environment, and that's why we still have capitalism rather a more enlightened economic system that doesn't take such a toll on people's mental health. Our culture has lagged behind our technology.

But you're saying what I'm saying I think. The idea of being "manly" is conditioned through the expected behavior of men. Women are emotional and hysterical and men are strong and in control of their emotions. It's part of the feminist argument as to why patriarchy and gender stereotypes hurt everyone, not just women. Comfort in terms of showing or discussing emotion has to do with how the emotions of men are seen culturally. They're uncomfortable because it's considered a more feminine thing to do. "You shouldn't need emotional support because you're stronger than that" is the message that most men get.

I think "manliness" doesn't condition men to be more in control. It conditions them to try and appear invulnerable, which has the opposite effect. It makes men even more out of control. If you can't show vulnerability you literally have no options but to fight. You don't see many bullied girls who wind up shooting up schools. GIrls get sympathy. Boys get told to fight back, to "man up", and not be a "pussy". Then they wonder why people get shot.

It makes me sad that you think women think like that. I'll be afraid if you walk too close behind me at night and I am conditioned to be afraid when I pass groups of men on the street when I'm alone. It wouldn't be that way if more women weren't raped or told that it would be their fault if they were walking alone at night and were raped, not because of culture. However, I'm not afraid of men, even as a rape victim. I can be abused by anyone. I can be sexually assaulted by another woman. Less likely but still possible. I trust people I've met and talked to and I generally think the best of other people and their intentions (unless I'm dating them ), but I don't feel that women on the whole are scared of men.

But there's always the problem for a man. You can't show too much warmth, vulnerability, or affection towards a woman without it being construed as sexual. Unfortunately a lot of the time it is sexual with heterosexual guys. Sexuality creates all these boundaries that forbid closeness outside of the typical monogamous sexual relationship.

The boundary can be fuzzy but you can make it clearer if you communicate. My ex actually had had sex with or been on dates with many of his female friends. Met them on OKCupid or something. But when they didn't work out and it became clear that they weren't sexually compatible or going to be great in a relationship (my ex is very picky and kinky), he just became friends with them instead. He's also friends with ex's. But as treacherous as that may seem, it's worked out for him because he's honestly communicated things like "I don't think we'd work well as a couple" to them and been really nice about it. If you make boundaries clear it can work. I have a guy friend who I like. I admittedly haven't had many in my life because I get along better with other women and have had trouble not dating or f*cking the guys I've connected on any level with. But I met him when I was just broken up with and working on therapy. We met through OKCupid and he knew right off the bat that I wasn't interested in anything sexual or romantic. We can talk about personal things and it's really nice. And I've even told him that I find him attractive, but see him as a friend. My ex was kind of a $hit about it and told me that it wouldn't work because of my history, but it has.

What I meant is for some people the boundary really is fuzzy, regardless of what terms we try to use. I generally want something much more than a friend, affection, love, etc... just not sex. I want something more than mere friendship. Most people do not understand this at all.

Look. I get what you're saying. With BPD it's hard not to feel like a freak. I've definitely felt like a loser. It's my birthday soon and I only have 3 friends in the city who I feel close enough to ask to do things with me for my birthday. I've lived there for a year, although most of my time was spent on school, working at sex clubs/going to sex parties, and my relationship. I didn't put any time or effort into making friends. I find that really hard to do. I don't connect easily with other people and like you said it's hard to make friends in a city. I've also moved a lot over the past few years. I don't keep in touch very well and lose contact and closeness with other people easily. I don't feel close to pretty much anyone right now. I don't have someone I trust enough to talk to, except maybe my sister and one friend. I've always had a small number of friends and almost no one I felt comfortable talking emotions with. Connecting with people is hard for me.

My problem is no matter how "close" friends I have. I'm almost never able to see any particular friend more than once a week at the very most. They are always "busy". To have to get on my knees and beg to see someone once every week or two just doesn't feel "close" or do much to combat loneliness. I look for relationships so I can have someone to see more than once a week. I also need to find other introverts who aren't so "busy" going out and doing things all the time. I need someone I can just relax with.

Part of why I have focused on relationships is because they are the easiest way for me to connect to another person. There's nothing wrong with you. I understand how difficult it can be. Part of DBT actually is working on these things. My therapist calls it "building a life worth living". A good part of my current therapy is working on my life outside of relationships so I have people to feel close to outside of sexual/romantic relationships. She pushes me to socialize and work on feeling better when I'm alone. It's part of what I really like about it. I'd never really thought about how much of my life centered around being in a relationship.

I may need DBT, but I also think some needs of mine just aren't being met. I can't be happy living alone indefinitely. It's something I have to temporarily put up with until I find something better. DBT might work as a bandaid, but I ultimately need a better life. I'm pretty sure I'm mild as far as BPD goes. I'm not afraid of intimacy and I don't push people away or split people for no reason. I don't really understand that. I'm just a needy person, and it hurts to feel neglected all the time because you can't find anyone compatible. My depression is severe but my BPD is mild compared to many. BPDish symptoms never happened at times in my life where I was happy (when I was in college learning every day). They actually came on more when I got older and more isolated, forced into the isolating world of "work". I think I need to deal with my depression and isolation first. It's the thing that's absolutely killing me right now. That's just me though.

twistednerve wrote:But I do KNOW not every BPD is an azzhole, and this is where the problem lies. I see how people on these boards are trying to get better but feel hostility from others getting in their way of improving. It hurts anyone's feelings and makes people understandably defensive and with their self esteem and pride attacked. Maybe the health and psychiatric boards should just create more names/diagnosis to differentiate the evil BPDs from the ones who aren't so bad.

But isn't it more useful to live in the more nuanced grown-up world and discard the temptation to label others with black-and-white fairytale notions like "good and evil". You lack the imagination to see that there is "evil" in you and you are just as capable of being one of those "monsters" as anyone else. I'd say people who are completely self-unaware are the most dangerous. They go join groups like ISIS where they can divide the world up into "good guys" and "bad guys" and commit atrocities with no conscience, all because they've convinced themselves they are "good" and on the side of "god".

frostfern wrote:

twistednerve wrote:But I do KNOW not every BPD is an azzhole, and this is where the problem lies. I see how people on these boards are trying to get better but feel hostility from others getting in their way of improving. It hurts anyone's feelings and makes people understandably defensive and with their self esteem and pride attacked. Maybe the health and psychiatric boards should just create more names/diagnosis to differentiate the evil BPDs from the ones who aren't so bad.

But isn't it more useful to live in the more nuanced grown-up world and discard the temptation to label others with black-and-white fairytale notions like "good and evil". You lack the imagination to see that there is "evil" in you and you are just as capable of being one of those "monsters" as anyone else. I'd say people who are completely self-unaware are the most dangerous. They go join groups like ISIS where they can divide the world up into "good guys" and "bad guys" and commit atrocities with no conscience, all because they've convinced themselves they are "good" and on the side of "god".

I don't really put it that way, as in a "good vs evil" perspective. I'm talking about specific things, within the BPD spectrum, for some individuals - and separating it nicely from the more direct forms of aggression.

And people from all walks of life can do terrible things, yea, and most do to some degree.