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Telling lies and being manipulative

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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby ShakyCore » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:47 pm

Lilycat10 wrote:That's another thing.. I also say things that are true at the time but my opinions and feelings change so often it may not be true a few hours later. It's real difficult to explain that to anyone. They just assume I'm full of crap or messing with them.


I know exactly what you mean...
I once had a bf that I went out of my way to try and "be real" with and he ended up complaining that I appeared to be a different person every time I walked through the door... it was very frustrating because he may have thought I was being fake when actually all of those really were the real me(s)...

madjoe wrote:if you are good at minipulating you don't need to tell lies

if you are good at lieing you don't need to manipulate


Well put...
Gratitude can heal most wounds.

(What can I say… I don't like the word "all")
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby bpd77 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:16 pm

I am a bit confused...why would you want to manipulate and lie to people all the time?

And I have to disagree with that last post...not everyone manipulates or lies to get what they want. There are other healthy skills that you can use! I don't see how manipulating and lying is a healthy way to communicate to others...
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby ShakyCore » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:18 pm

bpd77 wrote:I am a bit confused...why would you want to manipulate and lie to people all the time?

And I have to disagree with that last post...not everyone manipulates or lies to get what they want. There are other healthy skills that you can use! I don't see how manipulating and lying is a healthy way to communicate to others...


Yes, by all means there are far, far better and healthier ways of communicating. If a person has healthy, normal social skills, strong boundaries and a high self esteem – that person has no need or use for lies or manipulation... (Does that answer your question btw?).

Incidentally, on a side note, with BPD things like manipulation often happen on a subconscious or semi conscious level. You can be a strong believer in honesty yet still be a manipulator without even being aware of it.
Gratitude can heal most wounds.

(What can I say… I don't like the word "all")
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby bpd77 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:47 pm

ShakyCore wrote:
bpd77 wrote:I am a bit confused...why would you want to manipulate and lie to people all the time?

And I have to disagree with that last post...not everyone manipulates or lies to get what they want. There are other healthy skills that you can use! I don't see how manipulating and lying is a healthy way to communicate to others...


Yes, by all means there are far, far better and healthier ways of communicating. If a person has healthy, normal social skills, strong boundaries and a high self esteem – that person has no need or use for lies or manipulation... (Does that answer your question btw?).

Incidentally, on a side note, with BPD things like manipulation often happen on a subconscious or semi conscious level. You can be a strong believer in honesty yet still be a manipulator without even being aware of it.

I totally agree with the subconscious level of manipulation and lying. I am definitely not an angel when it comes to that. I have even done it on a conscious level. But I am trying to live a healthier lifestyle and doing my best to stay away from unhealthy BPD ways to deal with social situations. I guess I figured that when a person comes onto a forum like this one, she/he is looking for help to seek a better healthy lifestyle. That is why I was a bit confused.

TY for you input though very much appreciated!
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby ShakyCore » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:32 pm

bpd77 wrote:I totally agree with the subconscious level of manipulation and lying. I am definitely not an angel when it comes to that. I have even done it on a conscious level. But I am trying to live a healthier lifestyle and doing my best to stay away from unhealthy BPD ways to deal with social situations. I guess I figured that when a person comes onto a forum like this one, she/he is looking for help to seek a better healthy lifestyle. That is why I was a bit confused.

TY for you input though very much appreciated!


YW and I understand your concern. Rest assured that everybody here generally is looking for better and healthier ways of living; it's just that that often requires a lot of self exploration and processing. Talking about what is and not condemning it, isn't the same as condoning it.

At any rate if, in your own journey, you've gotten past the point of feeling a need to hide behind a mask; I personally applaud you :).
Gratitude can heal most wounds.

(What can I say… I don't like the word "all")
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby bpd77 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:08 pm

ShakyCore wrote:
bpd77 wrote:I totally agree with the subconscious level of manipulation and lying. I am definitely not an angel when it comes to that. I have even done it on a conscious level. But I am trying to live a healthier lifestyle and doing my best to stay away from unhealthy BPD ways to deal with social situations. I guess I figured that when a person comes onto a forum like this one, she/he is looking for help to seek a better healthy lifestyle. That is why I was a bit confused.

TY for you input though very much appreciated!


YW and I understand your concern. Rest assured that everybody here generally is looking for better and healthier ways of living; it's just that that often requires a lot of self exploration and processing. Talking about what is and not condemning it, isn't the same as condoning it.

At any rate if, in your own journey, you've gotten past the point of feeling a need to hide behind a mask; I personally applaud you :).


I wanted to thank you for bring this into a whole different light for me. I never even thought about self exploration and how it isn't the same thing as condoning it. It was a total ah ha moment for me so THANKS!!

And I am trying my best not to hide behind a mask (its so exhausting to be honest)....it still happens. But learn from each moment I suppose!
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby Empathy201 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:02 pm

I think the attitude or belief that "everyone lies" is as subjective as it is circumstantial. We are all capable of lying. We are all given choices to omit facts and truths, to twist them or invent them, on a daily basis. Having the ability to do it and the options to do it does not mean that everyone does it. I'm sure there are some people who never have.

But I also think there is a difference between sugar-coating your response to another person and being boldly honest with comments like "I don't find you attractive, at all" during a blind date or some interviewer saying "You didn't get the job because I don't like you." That difference seems to be one of purposely deceiving/misleading someone versus effectively communicating your position/opinion without causing unnecessary harm to someone else. Both elements need to be present though; You can't omit a fact or truth to protect someone while also hiding the reality. Doing that is lying and, under that context, I can assure you that not every "lies".

My mother, who exhibits many BPD traits (among other Cluster B), seems to lie instinctively about anything. Interestingly, they are often outlandishly story-like in there detail. Someone could call her asking if she'll be home so they can visit and rather than suggest a different day, she would tell them that she just found out someone is dying in the hospital so she needs to be there with them (then she adds in more detail to support her lie). She could walk into her house and forget to close the door completely. If someone points that out, her reaction, even if it's moments later and she's still standing in the doorway, is "I didn't do that. Someone else must have walked out after me."

In regards to Borderline Personality Disorder, what percentage of lies are done in a specific (though likely subconscious) effort to mask the disorder? That is to say, not being completely honest about something or inventing things because the truth would somehow reinforce a negative perception of self?




It's interesting to hear pwBPD use the word 'manipulate' because, clinically, there's a bit of a debate over whether any foresight/scheming actually occurs on any level. A lot of things appear to be a knee-jerk maladaptive reaction to a rapidly-felt, overwhelming emotion. Whatever situation occurred that could be perceived as potential manipulation appears to very often be just an unhealthy way of trying to communicate wants/needs/feelings and lacking the tools/understanding to do it differently.

Having said that, is there anyone with BPD who actually feels they DO purposely manipulate? Where you know you could have done something differently and gotten the same response, but you intentionally chose to do it the way you did?
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby Lilycat10 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:08 am

Empathy201 wrote:I think the attitude or belief that "everyone lies" is as subjective as it is circumstantial. We are all capable of lying. We are all given choices to omit facts and truths, to twist them or invent them, on a daily basis. Having the ability to do it and the options to do it does not mean that everyone does it. I'm sure there are some people who never have.

But I also think there is a difference between sugar-coating your response to another person and being boldly honest with comments like "I don't find you attractive, at all" during a blind date or some interviewer saying "You didn't get the job because I don't like you." That difference seems to be one of purposely deceiving/misleading someone versus effectively communicating your position/opinion without causing unnecessary harm to someone else. Both elements need to be present though; You can't omit a fact or truth to protect someone while also hiding the reality. Doing that is lying and, under that context, I can assure you that not every "lies".

My mother, who exhibits many BPD traits (among other Cluster B), seems to lie instinctively about anything. Interestingly, they are often outlandishly story-like in there detail. Someone could call her asking if she'll be home so they can visit and rather than suggest a different day, she would tell them that she just found out someone is dying in the hospital so she needs to be there with them (then she adds in more detail to support her lie). She could walk into her house and forget to close the door completely. If someone points that out, her reaction, even if it's moments later and she's still standing in the doorway, is "I didn't do that. Someone else must have walked out after me."

In regards to Borderline Personality Disorder, what percentage of lies are done in a specific (though likely subconscious) effort to mask the disorder? That is to say, not being completely honest about something or inventing things because the truth would somehow reinforce a negative perception of self?




It's interesting to hear pwBPD use the word 'manipulate' because, clinically, there's a bit of a debate over whether any foresight/scheming actually occurs on any level. A lot of things appear to be a knee-jerk maladaptive reaction to a rapidly-felt, overwhelming emotion. Whatever situation occurred that could be perceived as potential manipulation appears to very often be just an unhealthy way of trying to communicate wants/needs/feelings and lacking the tools/understanding to do it differently.

Having said that, is there anyone with BPD who actually feels they DO purposely manipulate? Where you know you could have done something differently and gotten the same response, but you intentionally chose to do it the way you did?


Yes, I will admit that I purposely manipulate. There's a lot of times I do it on a sub conscious level but I absolutely do it knowingly quite often. My thinking is messed up because I view it as a good quality. I think I feel that way because my Mom has always praised me for doing these things. However, if someone else lies or manipulates and it's directed towards me, I will think they're an awful person. How hypocritical is that? I know it but it doesn't change the way I feel. I'm very self aware but unable to change my feelings.

Sometimes my lies will be an automatic reaction and I say it without thinking. Almost like a defense mechanism. Other times I plan out exactly what I will say and how ill say it. It's extremely rehearsed. I go over every possible outcome and make sure I cover all areas so nobody will figure out what I'm doing and ill always be prepared. I have huge lies that I've kept up since I was 7 or 8. I'd never confess because it would change a lot of things in my life.. In a bad way.

I used to care about being viewed as a liar by my Mom because I always berated her for her lies but since she's praised me on the lies I've told to cover for her. So now I tell her obvious lies. I want her to know I'm lying. I just said to her the other day " You may as well never ask me that question again because ill just make up whatever answer I feel like telling you." She didn't even say anything.
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby Shazam » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:16 am

Empathy201 wrote:It's interesting to hear pwBPD use the word 'manipulate' because, clinically, there's a bit of a debate over whether any foresight/scheming actually occurs on any level. A lot of things appear to be a knee-jerk maladaptive reaction to a rapidly-felt, overwhelming emotion. Whatever situation occurred that could be perceived as potential manipulation appears to very often be just an unhealthy way of trying to communicate wants/needs/feelings and lacking the tools/understanding to do it differently.

Having said that, is there anyone with BPD who actually feels they DO purposely manipulate? Where you know you could have done something differently and gotten the same response, but you intentionally chose to do it the way you did?


Personally I am in the knee-jerk camp. I don't have enough savvy with other people to even begin to want to manipulate them. When I do things that come off as manipulation, I think I am just defending myself, and get kind of blind to its effect on others. Although I might argue that attempting to coax praise and love out of people is a form of manipulation that I have tended to engage in, to the detriment of my relationships.

Interestingly, it is often the suspicion/sensation that someone else is manipulating ME that makes me start acting out in erratic ways that others might perceive as manipulation. or me just being an a-hole.
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Re: Telling lies and being manipulative

Postby ButHeartOfAnAngel » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:01 pm

Lilycat10 wrote:Omg wow! That is DEAD ON. I think everyone lies. I don't trust anyone. It's my nature to assume everything a person says is false. It really makes sense now. The other bizarre thing is that people put all of their trust in me so easily. I always think to myself "Why do you trust me?".

Shazam wrote:Interestingly, it is often the suspicion/sensation that someone else is manipulating ME that makes me start acting out in erratic ways that others might perceive as manipulation. or me just being an a-hole.


"In general, the results of this study suggest that patients with BPD
can be successfully discriminated from major depressives and normals
on the basis of their object relations and social cognition.

The overall pattern of findings suggests that BPDs are distinguished by
poorly differentiated, egocentric representations of people;
malevolent expectations of relationships;
difficulty investing in relationships and moral standards;
and idiosyncratic and grossly illogical attributions.
It is likely that these characteristics of the object relations and social cognition of borderline patients underlie many of the interpersonal difficulties of these patients.
A particularly strong finding is that
BPDs have a tendency to view the world of people as malevolent
,
which was replicated in a study comparing borderline adolescents to psychiatric and normal comparison subjects (Westen, Ludolph, Lerner, et aL 1990)."
( Copyright 1990 by the American Psychological Association, Inc. )

Lilycat10 wrote:The other bizarre thing is that people put all of their trust in me so easily. I always think to myself "Why do you trust me?".

Is it really bizarre that people put all of their trust in people so easily ? Maybe not...
Considering that neither normals nor major depressives (which covers a good part of general population) have that tendency BPDs have... to view the world of people as malevolent,
good part of general population puts NOT all, but some of their trust in you... NOT "so easily",
just relatively easily..., but not for long... :D, and here... comes a part of the trouble... "of the interpersonal difficulties of these patients"...
just some thoughts... what do you, people, think ?
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