So what IS "ugly" anyway?

As I've skimmed the posts in this forum, two thoughts come to mind.

When I was in second grade, the art teacher's assignment to the class was to "draw something ugly." I drew a purple gorilla, whereupon the teacher challenged me with, "Well, that's different, but how is it ugly?" He had similar comments for all of the pictures, and it became clear what his lesson was. Nothing is actually "ugly," because ugly is a matter of opinion and can't really be defined.

As for a person feeling ugly, and having others call him/her that, well, I have some experience.

I'm plus-sized, but whether or not that makes me ugly is up for debate. My mother believes it does. I was trying to tell her about social conditioning, and if we'd grown up routinely seeing size 18 women on magazine covers, instead of the size 0's and 2's, we'd think--

She cut me off in mid-syllable. "NO! Fat is not attractive!" Well, gee, thanks, Mom. And you love me? She went on to explain that "fat is something your body doesn't need," and according to her, that's what makes it unattractive. Several things wrong here. Number one, our bodies do need SOME fat. Too thin is just as unhealthy as too fat. Even trim athletes have a body fat percentage of 6 to 20 percent, women having more. Number two, your body doesn't need piercings or tattoos either. Does that mean her ears are ugly, since they're pierced and don't need to be?

When I was in college and made the Dean's List, she told me it didn't matter how well I did. I'd never get a good job because "nobody is going to want a woman your size to be their corporate image." Since I was majoring in business management, she then pulled out these businesswomen's publications, pointed out pictures of female CEO's and made a big deal of the fact that none of them had weight issues. Well, in the years since, I've met many a high-ranking businesswoman who is bigger around the ass than I am.

Besides my weight, there were other things my mother used against me, to make me feel like dog crap on the bottom of her shoe. I find my amount of facial hair embarrassing. Since around ten or so, I've been plagued by a unibrow that looks like a caterpillar crawled on to the bridge of my nose and died, plus a mustache some men would envy. As a child I was not allowed to groom myself properly--that's another topic for another post--but now, I keep that facial hair strictly removed. On top of this, my teeth were bucked to the point of facial deformity until I was in the eighth grade, when a school counselor took pity on me and financed the braces my parents never would have coughed up the money for. Always enough money for beer and cigarettes, but never enough for anything the kids needed, that's the way it was at our house.

Big, pudgy, hairy, and bucktoothed, I certainly was an ugly kid. Am I ugly now? My husband doesn't think so. And, now that I am physically capable of closing my mouth, I suppose my face is tolerable, as long as I keep that facial hair plucked. My body... I don't know.

Beauty and ugliness are pretty objective. They basically come down to a few factors:

1. Symmetry
2. Proportion
3. Sexual Dimorphism
4. Coloring(e.g, smooth, even skin or healthy red lips)
5. Low body fat

If you have all of these, you're seen as beautiful. The fewer you have, the uglier you are.

twoface wrote:Beauty and ugliness are pretty objective. They basically come down to a few factors:

1. Symmetry
2. Proportion
3. Sexual Dimorphism
4. Coloring(e.g, smooth, even skin or healthy red lips)
5. Low body fat

If you have all of these, you're seen as beautiful. The fewer you have, the uglier you are.

Yet, back in the old days "you definition of beauty" was the definition for "ugly":



...as a friend of mine put it (wile being sarcastic) - "damn, i was born in the wrong age" - she's a little overweight but has strong personality - till now she had 3 boyfriends and she was the one who ended the relationships - wile those boys were crazy about her, apologizing and making a scene trying to win her back... wile other friends that have seen her on street - thought of her just like you did... cause that's how they were educated by the media... yet - that's not important for everybody...

...oh and another thing - a big secret ( ): "some people like to be mean - makes them feel better about themselves - if they make others feel bad... even gives them a sick satisfaction."

So hey - maybe an improvement could rise your self-esteem... which obviously - implies some sacrifices (some gym, a healthy diet) - but keep in mind, that your main problem is inside your head - cause instead of doing something about it with the resources you had - you chose to see yourself as ugly and behave like it... and then - wonder why others see you like that - when in reality "you give in to what some people say - and "kinda" accepted their conclusion"... wile knowing that - this is not necessarily true.

I'd like to finish with a question: Didn't you make this choice cause - it seemed easier to accept "a ugly conclusion"? - cause sometimes... that's what we do - go along with what others say, cause it's less troublesome (even tho - "it hurts") than trying to prove them otherwise - and not just to them, but to ourselves as well.

GemInI wrote:

twoface wrote:Beauty and ugliness are pretty objective. They basically come down to a few factors:

1. Symmetry
2. Proportion
3. Sexual Dimorphism
4. Coloring(e.g, smooth, even skin or healthy red lips)
5. Low body fat

If you have all of these, you're seen as beautiful. The fewer you have, the uglier you are.

Yet, back in the old days "you definition of beauty" was the definition for "ugly":



...as a friend of mine put it (wile being sarcastic) - "damn, i was born in the wrong age" - she's a little overweight but has strong personality - till now she had 3 boyfriends and she was the one who ended the relationships - wile those boys were crazy about her, apologizing and making a scene trying to win her back... wile other friends that have seen her on street - thought of her just like you did... cause that's how they were educated by the media... yet - that's not important for everybody...

...oh and another thing - a big secret ( ): "some people like to be mean - makes them feel better about themselves - if they make others feel bad... even gives them a sick satisfaction."

So hey - maybe an improvement could rise your self-esteem... which obviously - implies some sacrifices (some gym, a healthy diet) - but keep in mind, that your main problem is inside your head - cause instead of doing something about it with the resources you had - you chose to see yourself as ugly and behave like it... and then - wonder why others see you like that - when in reality "you give in to what some people say - and "kinda" accepted their conclusion"... wile knowing that - this is not necessarily true.

I'd like to finish with a question: Didn't you make this choice cause - it seemed easier to accept "a ugly conclusion"? - cause sometimes... that's what we do - go along with what others say, cause it's less troublesome (even tho - "it hurts") than trying to prove them otherwise - and not just to them, but to ourselves as well.

That might be a little true for the weight issue, but we generally consider lean people to be attractive. Grossly overweight people have always been considered ugly. I know you always hear the media talk about "the new standard for beauty" or whatever, but the fact is that our attraction to people with a healthy level of body fat has been constant throughout history. Men tend to be most attractive around 10% body fat, while women are most attractive around 20% body fat. Contrary to popular belief, men do NOT find ultra skinny runway models more attractive than similar women with a bit more fat on them.

The other factors of beauty -- symmetry, proportion, sexual dimorphism, healthy coloring -- have remained constant throughout history because these are signs of good genes. Even in other animals, these characteristics are what determine attractiveness.

To use my art teacher's technique here, so a person who does not fit the norm of symmetry, proportion, even skin tone, low body fat, and obvious sexuality is different, but how does it follow that the person is ugly? Who made the decision to define "ugly" that way, and why should we listen to it?

People with elephantiasis are not going to be proportionate, and they are going to look fat even though it isn't actually fat tissue but swelling. Then there are people with huge port wine birthmarks on one side of their face, so that they have neither symmetry nor even skin tone. Speaking of even skin tone, does this mean freckles and moles are ugly? Again, says who? What of people missing a limb? They aren't symmetrical. Are they ugly? Are people who have been burned ugly because of their scars?

As for body size, one of the nicest people I ever met billed himself as "Fat Albert" and worked as a circus attraction. Here's a link. http://www.phreeque.com/fat_albert.html Note his happy face, and the article stating that his parents taught him not to be ashamed of himself.

There are people who take measures to MAKE themselves grotesque, with extreme hair styles, tattoos, piercings, stretched out ear lobes, surgically implanted horns, whatever. You can bet they'll squawk loud and long if they feel they're disrespected because of their looks. So why should anybody be?

Who made the decision to define "ugly" that way, and why should we listen to it?

"The fans" and "their idols" - that beauty is defined mainly by popularity, what's popular for the time being in "a society" turns in to a highly mediatized pattern... as if it's a general perspective on beauty. If you take a look in to the past - and see what was defined as beauty back then - you could say that those people had "a poor taste" - even tho... same as now those shapes (even fat) was popular back then - wile being skinny was considered "unhealthy (even disgusting to a certain point)" - yet now - it's the opposite "cause times have changed"... but it's not a valid perspective for every society and same goes for individuals - some like skinny women/man others don't - and those usually don't care about the media - and what's popular for others in terms of beauty.

People with elephantiasis are not going to be proportionate, and they are going to look fat even though it isn't actually fat tissue but swelling. Then there are people with huge port wine birthmarks on one side of their face, so that they have neither symmetry nor even skin tone. Speaking of even skin tone, does this mean freckles and moles are ugly? Again, says who? What of people missing a limb? They aren't symmetrical. Are they ugly? Are people who have been burned ugly because of their scars?

Actually - no, this people are seen as diseased, scarred or handicapped - and that's how they're described "by medical terms" - not ugly but "physically ill" cause of their condition and "not in public..." if somebody calls this people "ugly" - that person is seen as insensible (lacking common sense) - and a lot of people (especially in times like the ones we live in - when we're educated to show more empathy for a person with "problems" ) will feel a repulsion for the ones "insulting" those in that condition... but again "some people are mean (that's how they were raised or that's how they raised themselves)" and they feel repulsive towards anything that doesn't fit with their image and their expectations... some of them - were even in a similar position - and they struggled to get out of it and now - they project the image they had for themselves cause of that condition to those that remind them of that (wile other in a similar situation - feel the opposite and show more empathy... since - they understand to well what they're going thru).

As for body size, one of the nicest people I ever met billed himself as "Fat Albert" and worked as a circus attraction. Here's a link. http://www.phreeque.com/fat_albert.html Note his happy face, and the article stating that his parents taught him not to be ashamed of himself.

That's actually a good technique to deal with such condition in "a positive way" - take celebrities like Danny Devito as another example or "IZ" (Somewhere over the Rainbow) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1bFr2SWP1I - and there are many people like that around the world who "attract those around - for being like that"

There are people who take measures to MAKE themselves grotesque, with extreme hair styles, tattoos, piercings, stretched out ear lobes, surgically implanted horns, whatever. You can bet they'll squawk loud and long if they feel they're disrespected because of their looks. So why should anybody be?

Cause "that's what works for them" - for some it's even a way of rebelling against the mediatized perspective on beauty... wile others - are not that influential in terms of "general perspective" - they see more beauty in "original approaches" even grotesque that go better with their personality - and they chose to express how they feel about that.

wile looking thru other topics - somebody reminded me of this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIuz6fUtfRE

GemInI wrote:wile looking thru other topics - somebody reminded me of this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIuz6fUtfRE

First I've seen of him. He's great!

omggg bradylady..please be my friend??? I wish I thought like you, I'm skeptical of many things and I have my own opinions but looks is a different story

Actually I've read that in some places in Africa, being overweight is considered beautiful because it shows that you are healthy enough to have children etc. And scientists believe that being overweight was beneficial a long time ago because when famines would occur you could survive longer than skinny people.

To be honest, I haven't seen many UGLY people in my life, but most are just average, which isnt bad, they just don't stand out too me. But once I get to know people for who they are, and if they have a good personality, they're beautiful too me. It's hard for me to judge solely based on appearance, however, I will admit that I'm kind of picky when it comes to dating a man...maybe it's because I'm young and kind of foolish...or maybe it's because the men in my family are tall and have blue eyes so I'm used to it and that's what I like (not in a creepy way).

Anyways, let me tell you my "stats". I'm 5'5, 105 pounds (im naturally thin), i do have pretty pronounced hips for how small I am so I have more of a hour glass shape than a straight shape, i have long healthy hair, blue/green eyes and "red healthy looking lips lol" (although I wish they were bigger, i wont get into that now)....so according to societies standards I should be beautiful, right?

Well I dont feel beautiful and in my opinion im not at all. I have a crooked weird nose, my eyes are wide but not long, my ears are weird, my face shape is weird, my legs are too long, im kinda hairy etc etc i could keep going on.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that there's too many variables to beauty...there's also too many variables in people's views on beauty. so ultimately...i dont think there is one definition of beauty. And besides...just because the majority of people think it's right doesn't mean it's right.

I can logically think this way for a bit and then my mind starts to tell myself that I'm ugly...I need to change this. anyways sorry for the rambling but I loved your post.

I have a simple rule to determine if I think someone is "ugly".

I ask myself, "Would I sleep with him?"

If yes, he's not ugly.

If no, he's ugly.

Biologically, doesn't it boil down to that: Our ability to sexually attract a mate for propagation?

There is no broad brush here... no magic formula. I think it is subjective because I've seen a guy and think, "Wow he's hot! I wanna see more of him!" My friend will look at me and say, "Ew! Are you nuts? He's ugly!" Everyone has different standards of "ugly".