accepting that you're liked

Hi anachronic,

thank you for posting this. I am going through the initial phases of just such a situation and it is currently driving me bonkers. (Even though I've experienced it before and should have some idea by now.)

i'm stubborn by nature, so it sort of comes naturally to me. but then when "everything is okay" and there are actual and concrete signs of mutual feelings, it's like i don't know what to do, and i get confused and conflicted.

And that's it exactly for me as well. I do like inverse's suggestion on how to act as it gives you a way to release the pressure quickly (just let them know) even if it's a bit on the gutsy side.

As far as relationships go, I only tend to make an effort when the person seems very trustworthy - this after a decision long ago about trying to focus my limited energies in situations where it can lead to some sort of relationship. It usually starts with showing the other person that I trust them and sharing some things with them. Usually I'll drop some hints that I like them and try to keep it non-obvious..

..and the above works fine until they return the favor. Once they make it clear that they are enjoying the experience (or start sharing things themselves) I immediately get frightened and confused with all kinds of scenarios popping up and the inevitable endless circular reasoning that follows.

So what to do... the first thing I do is to acknowledge that I trust the other person so that they can affect me without me running away. This starts off extremely frightening and usually gets better as time goes on. The other important bit is to see the major scenarios that I expect or fear and accept them as possible while trying to experience them. This is pretty grueling since there are many of them and they all make me uncomfortable for some reason, but it too gets better. Finally, drop the ones which don't reflect the current situation and just focus on the ones that do. This has worked for me in the past, but only when I have been able to do all three things I listed.

One more point, it is a journey and your perspective changes with each new development, so it feels like you're in a totally different place throughout. This tends to fade away once the relationship has become more stable and some of the worries go away. Then you find you can focus on the fewer (and more defined) issues at hand.

have you had any success in accepting that you're likeable and liked by someone who you really care about

Yes, although it takes some time. The 'newness' has to wear off before I can comfortable feel/believe it is happening. Until then it's some part believing and some part paranoia..

have you found any insights on what causes or triggers your own "preemptive feelings of rejection"?

It stems from not knowing how committed the other person is and fearing they will leave; this can be tempered by observing them sticking around where it becomes obvious they won't just leave.

have you found ways to at least soften a little bit the impact of such feelings...

Yes, although the relationship has to allow for you to share how you feel. Bringing up worrisome thoughts or feelings is a good way to get the other person to (in)validate whatever you are feeling and get rid of at least some of the doubt.


Hope this was somewhat helpful. For some reason I had a really hard time putting it into words

i was busy today, and now i should go to sleep, but i want to say that i'm glad i posted this, and i want to say thanks to everyone who responded so far

i'll be replying properly tomorrow

HopelessRomantic wrote:My advice is "don't go too far with this type of thinking". If it is about a romantic relationship, then don't overanalyze the situation, just accept it and go for it.

my problem is not really the thinking, as i'm actually not avoidant (in the sense of having avpd). one thing i usually say is that "i have many qualities. modesty is not one of them" (and even then, i secretly believe it is ). i overanalyze everything instinctively. i don't see so much of a problem with that, as i believe my conclusions are usually sound. the problem is context. in other words, what i'll be overanalyzing, for what reasons, and when

drastic and sudden changes of mood and mental state are routine and a fact of life for me. so i often find myself suddenly concerned with matters that have no real relevance in the moment. i can usually see that "there's something inconsistent going on in my head", but i can't tell what it is until, by a miracle, someone else is able to grasp the nature of my confusion and reassure me against it by saying something simple and "obvious"

sometimes those sudden changes are completely random, but sometimes they're triggered by something clear (like, for example, when someone is consistently patient and understanding with me for no apparent reason other than "they like me"). what i want to work at is nipping it in the bud, realizing on my own that i'm not making sense before the other person would need to. which on the one hand is usually a good thing to try, but on the other hand i realize is yet another facet of my insecurity ("avoiding the need to be needy")

HopelessRomantic wrote:the one who has a heart and a brain doesn't need explanation.

oh but they do... because it's not the lack of one or the other which is the problem. it's just that they often don't cooperate with each other...

anachronic wrote: i overanalyze everything instinctively. i don't see so much of a problem with that, as i believe my conclusions are usually sound.

anachronic wrote:drastic and sudden changes of mood and mental state are routine and a fact of life for me. so i often find myself suddenly concerned with matters that have no real relevance in the moment. i can usually see that "there's something inconsistent going on in my head", but i can't tell what it is until, by a miracle, someone else is able to grasp the nature of my confusion and reassure me against it by saying something simple and "obvious"

hmmm, I put those two quotations together to see if there's any inconsistency per chance.

first, you seem to argue that overanalysing is good, because it brings you to sound conclusions.
then, you seem to say that you have sudden changes of mood and mental state and you feel there's something inconsistent.

have you ever thought that these changes in moods may be the result of overanalysing?

I am the type of person who overanalyses as well. My mother reproaches me for splitting hairs into many. Other people used to tell me that too. My defence has always been the same, i.e. only by overanalysing I am able to understand things clearly. But do I? Is overanalysing a means to reach a correct conclusion, or is it just a means of self-protection, a means to go a bit too far and escape reality when it is too hard to handle?

inverse wrote:Definitely think it out ahead of time so you don't come off as crazy-needy.

too late

but yes, honesty and openness and an unusual level of understanding are the basis of my relationship with this person. i highly value those things. very highly (and i highly appreciate her for that). we both find it extremely difficult to discuss emotional things, but we do discuss them. i get insecure all the time, she gets insecure all the time, i get impatient, she gets fatalistic, sometimes i blame her for my confusion, sometimes she blames me for hers. but in the end we both admit all of it

i have sort of a counterphobic tendency with conflict (seeking it when i fear it the most), while she has more of the opposite. so i take it as a very significant gesture when we do discuss things. i see it as a sign of consideration, even if she's saying inconsiderate things at times (it's part of the nature of arguments. which is why i've been trying to focus on reducing the need for any stressful discussions, as per her request)

You could tell them straight up, the situation between the two of you feels new to you. (New rather than strange or uncomfortable or insecure - it will be taken as positive and flattering.) Tell them that you want to make up a sign to celebrate the feeling of newness that you only do with each other - maybe in not so clunky a way. And then literally come up with a code phrase or gesture that you can interpret as "I care for you." Let the other person think it just means "Hey, you're cool;" eventually they'll pick up on what it really means as the relationship continues to deepen. I'm thinking something on the level of Carol Burnett's ear tug. You can use that code between you to reassure yourself that the relationship is on track.

hey, that's a pretty cool idea! i notice that we kinda do this all the time already, but it's only implied and it's not clear. like the last time i freaked out badly, for example, it was because she let an online game of scrabble expire... i hadn't realized it before, but i guess i saw that permanently ongoing scrabble as a sign of affection, and then i felt lost and forgotten without it. making such signs clearer to each other could make things easier. it just has to be something natural, or else it won't work. but if i keep the idea in mind, i'm sure something will come up

That can be done with friends, too. I had one friend - this is a bit embarrassing to admit - we decided that Billy Joel was "our musician," and whenever one of his songs came on the radio we had to turn it up and sing along, whether we were with each other or not. If a more obscure song came on, or if it came on at an awkward time, we would report it back to each other. It kind of reassured each other that we were thinking about each other even when they weren't around. To this day, Billy Joel comes on the radio, I think of this friend. Silly, but it worked.

don't be embarrassed! that's what friendships are made of, isn't it?

-- 15 Sep 2014 18:22 --

HopelessRomantic wrote:hmmm, I put those two quotations together to see if there's any inconsistency per chance.

hehe i know it's inconsistent. i know i "think too much", and it does bother me, and has bothered me for ages. it's just that i've come to terms with it as a fact of life. it's not psychological, and there's no use fighting against it. it's not going to change. but i don't see anything inherently wrong with it, so while i can't change it, i can still change how i deal with it and what use i make of it

anachronic wrote:
but yes, honesty and openness and an unusual level of understanding are the basis of my relationship with this person. i highly value those things. very highly (and i highly appreciate her for that). we both find it extremely difficult to discuss emotional things, but we do discuss them. i get insecure all the time, she gets insecure all the time, i get impatient, she gets fatalistic, sometimes i blame her for my confusion, sometimes she blames me for hers. but in the end we both admit all of it

oh, oh, no, I sense trouble. These type of friendships are a great means to understand oneself, but they usually don't last, and end up badly. I just hope I am again paranoid. But yeah, if it is this sort of friendship which is I am sensing then I just feel I'd better warn you.

Philonoe wrote:I think that people who are secure tend to ask and offer evidences of their feelings easily. They make gestures, they accept the need for reassurance of the other person. They are not rocks or robots. They are just not afraid to ask and offer.

that's the funny thing. i'm "one of those people" you're talking about. i've been vigorously asserting my need for reassurance for a long time, explaining as well and as patiently as i can why and when i need it, and also offering all i can / want to offer (which is a pleasure to me). except things have changed recently. i see simple, spontaneous gestures of reassurance, and i see consistency. and... that scares me... (i know. wtf, right?)

What happens is that you probably tend to feel close to people who have some insecurities too. Because you share some sensitivity with them, some history, you understand each other...

well that's an understatement

And they are like you : they don't know how to do. They don't believe that they are liked. So when you ask for signs of love, there is a risk that they feel trapped. They don't think : "that person loves me" they think : "they are expecting something I can't give". Or "they mistake about me. They think I am someone else".
They are afraid, too.

i don't know where you're coming from with this, but you do know what you're talking about

OK, now what can you do? Unfortunately I don't know. Maybe this would be a direction : you can ask for reassurance. If you have no answer, just stop. Be aware that the person can be insecure too. I have no doubt that you are important for him/her (just intuition). Try to find an other way to refill yourself (meditation, art, walks, whatever) and let him/her take some time.

Don't be afraid : this mess in the feelings is at the beginning of a relationship. Then little by little , trust tend to grow. Because you have common experiences. Because you saw that he/she stayed.

focusing on myself... trickiest thing in the world. i feel like an ourobouros when i try to. like i'm going to consume myself and disintegrate. but you're right, especially about that last sentence. i have a hard time seeing my progress with anything just as much as i have trouble seeing (or facing) my shortcomings. i guess i shouldn't forget that

in essence, even though i tend to be optimistic (and even unwavering) about the future most of the time, i guess i have a constant feeling of urgency that i should be doing something to fix something, and that "my optimistic future" depends on it. which rationally speaking is silly, of course. just because i feel something is wrong, it doesn't mean that there actually is something wrong

i really liked it that, the last time, she stopped me and asked me "is there something wrong? are you okay?", and that was like " -- no, i'm not. thank you for helping me see it". i kept feeling silly and stupid after that, but (again, rationally speaking) i know very well she understands it

-- 15 Sep 2014 18:44 --

HopelessRomantic wrote:oh, oh, no, I sense trouble. These type of friendships are a great means to understand oneself, but they usually don't last, and end up badly. I just hope I am again paranoid. But yeah, if it is this sort of friendship which is I am sensing then I just feel I'd better warn you.

hehe yes, you are being paranoid . and i think i should let you know that, no, they don't always end soon or badly . i've been constantly in touch with this person for a year and a half, and except for the fact that lately we've been talking of plans together and more concrete and "grown-up" stuff, nothing essential has changed. the reasons why we're still in touch are still the exact same reasons why we stayed in touch after the first contact

so next time give it a try maybe

venividivicky wrote:Yeah, I have big trouble with that. I am not sure what a person would have to do to convince me otherwise. Words certainly don't do the trick.

they sure don't....

If they did something nice for me, I'd just consider it a function of their niceness.

that's an interesting way to put it. i hadn't thought of it that way. i guess if "someone is being nice because they're nice", then it's like it automatically implies (on a nonsensical emotional level) that it can't also be because they have reasons to be nice, and that those reasons actually have anything to do with me, unless there are reasons that i can see

so it feels natural to me when someone is nice to me when i believe i'm being nice to them (or "doing something for them"), but it's hard to grasp it when they're nice to me when i know i'm not being nice or useful. there's a disconnect in time, because the moments when i'm the most unpleasant are the moments when i have the most trouble seeing meaningful connections (between past actions and current events, for example)

even though, at the same time, it's perfectly natural for me to be nice to someone i care about even when they're not being so nice, because i know they're human, and it would have been hypocritical of me to say i like them for what they are if i'm going to change my mind as soon as they are even minimally unpleasant in any way. it's just that somehow the logic "doesn't apply to me"... which is stupid, but it's just how it works in my head, for whatever reason

I am always on guard not to outstay my welcome. Analyze what people might want from me, and try to provide it within reason. There is also a logical possibility of relation ending, so I am keeping myself prepared for it.

yes, i can relate to all that. i consider the most likely scenarios of failure before i decide to invest emotionally, and since i know i tend to overestimate my qualities and abilities, i assume that i'm the only one who can see them, unless i'm told otherwise in a direct way

i know i'll be visualizing those scenarios sooner or later anyway, so it's better if i don't get caught off guard. i visualize failure and i ask myself "is this possible failure in the future a problem in the present?". if it is, then i do something to make it stop being a problem (as a rule, i don't try to eliminate the possibility, because i know that's probably not going to work). if it's not a problem, then, awesome, it's out of my way. except sometimes i'm just not sharp enough to see it that way, so it turns against me

jkxxster wrote:As far as relationships go, I only tend to make an effort when the person seems very trustworthy

yes. that's very important to me too. she says "she's not reliable", and, yes, i understand what she means. but that's something i really do understand, because i'm not exactly consistent either... i see a huge difference between reliability and trustworthiness. one is a practical matter, while the other is a much more fundamental thing

So what to do... the first thing I do is to acknowledge that I trust the other person so that they can affect me without me running away. This starts off extremely frightening and usually gets better as time goes on. The other important bit is to see the major scenarios that I expect or fear and accept them as possible while trying to experience them. This is pretty grueling since there are many of them and they all make me uncomfortable for some reason, but it too gets better. Finally, drop the ones which don't reflect the current situation and just focus on the ones that do. This has worked for me in the past, but only when I have been able to do all three things I listed.

it's interesting that i wasn't thinking about your post when i was writing my reply above to venividivicky. i think my problem is that by now i'm past that stage, and don't have "the luxury" of having those scenarios available to me for consideration anymore. i just have to accept that i may get caught off guard big time, and that it comes with the territory

One more point, it is a journey and your perspective changes with each new development, so it feels like you're in a totally different place throughout. This tends to fade away once the relationship has become more stable and some of the worries go away. Then you find you can focus on the fewer (and more defined) issues at hand.

yes, that's my expectation, and i believe it's a reasonable expectation

Yes, although the relationship has to allow for you to share how you feel.

fortunately, it does . and yes, i think it works. i have a lot of trouble finding a balance of how much to share and how much to ignore and just let go. after all, there is randomness going on in my head, and sometimes i'm just not thinking straight and that's all that there is to it. but even in those cases, and even if i realize it's just my head malfunctioning, sometimes it's good to at least let the other person know what's going on, instead of waiting it out by myself. it's a complicated art, but it can be learned, and time helps

For some reason I had a really hard time putting it into words

i wouldn't have guessed you had. you did a pretty good job

Hope this was somewhat helpful.

it was. thank you very much

btw, if anyone else has anything else to add, there's no need to worry about hijacking the thread or anything. it doesn't have to be about my story. anything pertaining to the to topic at large (see subject line) is welcome

Glad I made sense The subject is relevant to me right now so seeing others' viewpoints has been helpful for me as well. I've brought in a close friend to help 'decipher' things in my own situation.

first, you seem to argue that overanalysing is good, because it brings you to sound conclusions.
then, you seem to say that you have sudden changes of mood and mental state and you feel there's something inconsistent.

have you ever thought that these changes in moods may be the result of overanalysing?

@Hopeless - Over-analyzing can certainly lead to triggers and mood swings as a result of "What if....!!!" types of cause-effect thinking. Then again I think it gives us some sense of control over a potentially dangerous situation when we can see at least some of the outcomes and the surprises that might come out from these. An outcome that I haven't anticipated is always a shocker for me although I don't know if that last bit happens to others.

oh, oh, no, I sense trouble. These type of friendships are a great means to understand oneself, but they usually don't last, and end up badly. I just hope I am again paranoid. But yeah, if it is this sort of friendship which is I am sensing then I just feel I'd better warn you.

I have had ones that have lasted years. And of course others which did not. I think it's worth considering the possibility even if it doesn't seem likely it will last. A close friend of mine is a really unpredictable person who tends to fit in the 'unreliable' category - we have been friends for some 7 years now and the unpredictability hasn't really been an issue.