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Morals.

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Re: Morals.

Postby petrossa » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:47 am

Me neither. Not if you take justice to mean doing the right thing. Many laws are very unjust.
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Re: Morals.

Postby Camelidae » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:36 pm

neal88 wrote: incest is immoral in every culture. Why? Because it typically results in f**ked up offspring.


I never got why incest would be immoral as long as those involved are not underaged or forced into something. There are stories of children meeting their biological parents without knowing they were their parents and there was no "natural" sense of shame that kept them from falling in love or having sex like they would have with any other partner. Seems like a society thing to me. Back when there was no birth control it made sense. Now not so much.

-- Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:40 pm --

petrossa wrote:Me neither. Not if you take justice to mean doing the right thing. Many laws are very unjust.


I do agree, but why is that? What is the law based on? I´m sure someone on here knows (because I don´t).
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Re: Morals.

Postby zausel » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:09 pm

petrossa wrote:
zausel wrote:
its not as prevalent as you would think.


Think again: http://scholar.google.fr/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=arab+consanguinity


how many generations into that are they? I said one or two generations wont affect you much but the further you go and it will cause high chances of disorder.

-- Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:13 pm --

Camelidae wrote:
neal88 wrote: incest is immoral in every culture. Why? Because it typically results in f**ked up offspring.


I never got why incest would be immoral as long as those involved are not underaged or forced into something. There are stories of children meeting their biological parents without knowing they were their parents and there was no "natural" sense of shame that kept them from falling in love or having sex like they would have with any other partner. Seems like a society thing to me. Back when there was no birth control it made sense. Now not so much.

-- Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:40 pm --

petrossa wrote:Me neither. Not if you take justice to mean doing the right thing. Many laws are very unjust.


I do agree, but why is that? What is the law based on? I´m sure someone on here knows (because I don´t).


some business suits parents upbringing(Which consist of a 3000 year old book, and intolerance), control, money, and power. Wave millions at a congressman and all of a sudden Coca-Cola seems very very bad and illegal.

because of the taboo and stigma about their children being retarded. but the increase in chance of retardation in inbreeding is not significant enough to worry about in 1-2 generations. After that and you may need to start worrying. But regardless those who wish to have sex with their sister will, and those who dont wont.
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Re: Morals.

Postby petrossa » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:46 pm

zausel wrote:
petrossa wrote:
zausel wrote:
its not as prevalent as you would think.


Think again: http://scholar.google.fr/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=arab+consanguinity


how many generations into that are they? I said one or two generations wont affect you much but the further you go and it will cause high chances of disorder.



I was reacting to it not being prevalent. It is prevalent. How long it took is immaterial.
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Re: Morals.

Postby zausel » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:29 pm

I confused. are you saying incest is prevalent or retardation is prevalent?
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Re: Morals.

Postby petrossa » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:32 pm

Retardation/mental issues amongst consanguineous cultures are a serious problem. One could make a silly joke like: that explains the ME, but one doesn't. :evil:
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Re: Morals.

Postby neal88 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:08 am

its not as prevalent as you would think. From my understanding the increase in mutation is only 1-7% with child-parent or sibling-sibling cases, less with first cousin, even lesser the further out you go. And given you may have a 2% chance of something, you now have a 9% in worse case, its not the norm. And that's only IF you have a history of defects in your history. it increases your chances of getting family history issues by 1-7%(higher chance per generation),the incest itself wont cause new issues.


Tell that to all the European royalty way back when who had haemophilia because of their inbreeding.

some business suits parents upbringing(Which consist of a 3000 year old book, and intolerance), control, money, and power. Wave millions at a congressman and all of a sudden Coca-Cola seems very very bad and illegal.


Are you implying that using a 3000 year old book (or religion period) breeds intolerance? 'Cause I've noticed a whole hell of a lot of hypocrisy with people being intolerant of religion, bashing religion for being intolerant. That's as ridiculous as Bill Gates claiming that Steve Jobs has a monopoly.

Just a wonderful world we live in, isn't it?

Someone mentioned justice. Justice for me is putting three 5.56mm FMJs in a burglar's chest. That's justice--not calling the cops and waiting for them to arrive after I've been beaten/killed, then having them track down the bugger, then throw him in jail with free housing and free meals for x-amount of years, all payed for by the tax payer. The law is sometimes on the side of justice, but most of the times it's just to get some power-player's rocks off.
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Re: Morals.

Postby zausel » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:26 am

neal88 wrote:
its not as prevalent as you would think. From my understanding the increase in mutation is only 1-7% with child-parent or sibling-sibling cases, less with first cousin, even lesser the further out you go. And given you may have a 2% chance of something, you now have a 9% in worse case, its not the norm. And that's only IF you have a history of defects in your history. it increases your chances of getting family history issues by 1-7%(higher chance per generation),the incest itself wont cause new issues.


Tell that to all the European royalty way back when who had haemophilia because of their inbreeding.

yes, but that was SEVERAL generations worth of inbreeding. Like I said get 4-5+ generations in and you will be popping out damaged kids fairly consistently. If you had a kid with your sister, chances are the kid will be fine. If that kid marries outside the family, chances are their kid will be fine. If your kid marries his sister, chances are the kid will be fine but the chances of disorder is higher than is was with you and your sister. if that kids fine and he marries his sister, the chances of retardation are now getting fairly high and they should start to dilute the genes.

1 generation of inbreeding does not have a significant change on your kids health. If there is a law, it should be against the 3 generation of inbreeding, maybe the second but not the first generation.

some business suits parents upbringing(Which consist of a 3000 year old book, and intolerance), control, money, and power. Wave millions at a congressman and all of a sudden Coca-Cola seems very very bad and illegal.


Are you implying that using a 3000 year old book (or religion period) breeds intolerance? 'Cause I've noticed a whole hell of a lot of hypocrisy with people being intolerant of religion, bashing religion for being intolerant. That's as ridiculous as Bill Gates claiming that Steve Jobs has a monopoly.

Just a wonderful world we live in, isn't it?


If youd like to discuss that for clarity, PM me. part of my drug recovery is practicing restraint, and I will restrain from further indepth convo of this subject in public on such a forum. So the thread doesnt get locked. Even if this discussion is fairly hard for me to control. Im going to attempt.
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Re: Morals.

Postby EBR » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:55 am

Are you implying that using a 3000 year old book (or religion period) breeds intolerance? 'Cause I've noticed a whole hell of a lot of hypocrisy with people being intolerant of religion, bashing religion for being intolerant. That's as ridiculous as Bill Gates claiming that Steve Jobs has a monopoly.


I suppose I dont see the correlation... I cant recall a specific incident where any group of non-believers actively attacked any particular religion out of intolerance, unfortunately the same cannot be said about most (if not all) religions... The difference in comparison with religion, and its followers which are to set an example (by following a specific set of rules) is that they are supposed to know better (thus do accordingly) and not just choose which parts of the bible (or similar book) they wish to listen to for their specific agenda at a given moment... The difference is, those who are non-believers are not making excuses for sin or more accurately, human nature but those who hide behind some god while somehow justifying thier ill behaviour yet condemning those who exhibit similar behaviour have a special kind of odasity...
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Re: Morals.

Postby petrossa » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:05 am

zausel wrote:yes, but that was SEVERAL generations worth of inbreeding.
1 generation of inbreeding does not have a significant change on your kids health. If there is a law, it should be against the 3 generation of inbreeding, maybe the second but not the first generation.


Inbreeding causes genetic problems from the get go. You increase the risk of genetic problems, if you happen to have a bad gene in the family genepool already it doesn't take many generations to cause havoc. That's the luck of the draw that goes lost in averaging numbers.

Sure there are people lucky and all goes well, otoh you have people who aren't and their children suffer the consequences. And that's worse then immoral.

When you do need to breed, (weird concept, but ok) one has the responsibility to minimize the chances of your offspring being genetically challenged. Consanguinity is the inverse.
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