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Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

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Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby crystal_richardson_ » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:04 am

to be frank, i think it is too easy for people to rationalize their behaviour in modern societies like the US.

even starting off with a normal set of emotions, anyone, starting blank, can lose them easily if they ponder about their world and options a little and choose among the answers available.

it is easy to arrive at the conclusion, or may even feel necessary depending on your circumstances, that empathy and conscience for others other than 'important persons' are hindrance and even dangerous to one's well-being/well-fair.

in the end, however, empathy and conscience are usually not purely rational choices, but emotional as well.

however, again, it is not hard to lose this emotional foundation if one's family, for example, doesn't really believe or show much of a social conscience or empathy toward others.

like, among you here who claim to lack empathy and conscience, do your parents at least also lack it, or other family?

to what extent are you just following in their footsteps, and how can you untangle that from influence of nature or other nurture?

is that what a psychopath is? someone who identifies with their parents/family, consciously or not, or accepts what their society/family is implicitly or explicitly telling them is required to make their way in this world?

there really is no respectable or convincing person, group, or institution out there that promotes empathy and conscience, is there?

how easy is it for a person born normal and raised relatively normal where they are to develop some (usually) sub-clinical symptoms of the PDs?

very easy.

unless you consciously make an effort to be moral and develop some unique identity around that (which is sometimes, ironically, a narcissistic thing leading to the result not quite being the same), it is very easy if not encouraged to give it up in this day and age and in this world/societies we live in, is it not?

so my question is, how do you tell true psychopathy, from essentially normal development in a particular culture/society, or particular segments/classes?

because the values and expectations in many segments of society essentially promote psychopathy (sub-clinical); not the disorder, but certain aspects.

no abuse, no adversity...just different values and norms as a result of adapting to one's situation
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby MotherRussia » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:05 am

unless you consciously make an effort to be moral and develop some unique identity around that (which is sometimes, ironically, a narcissistic thing leading to the result not quite being the same), it is very easy if not encouraged to give it up in this day and age and in this world/societies we live in, is it not?


Its possible to become very good at presenting a facade of normalcy and empathy, while secretly lacking empathy underneath.

For people who lack the inherent capacity for empathy, they observe what others do and what the expected behaviours are, and mimic them, because they understand that getting people to trust you and like you gets you much further than having people hate and fear you.

The simple show of empathy of course does not mean empathy is there. And once you realise that, it makes the world a much more sinister and scary place, because you never know for sure who is acting and who is actually a nice person.

so my question is, how do you tell true psychopathy, from essentially normal development in a particular culture/society, or particular segments/classes?

because the values and expectations in many segments of society essentially promote psychopathy (sub-clinical); not the disorder, but certain aspects.

no abuse, no adversity...just different values and norms as a result of adapting to one's situati


I think a true psychopath lacks remorse. Normal people very instinctively feel remorse and guilt for harming people. Its embedded in a normal person's instincts. You hurt someone = you can't sleep at night because of feeling guilty and awful about it. Negative emotions, anxiety, etc., and the anticipation of such, is the natural law enforcement that keeps normal people in line.

So of course psychopaths don't have that. They won't be kept up at night with anxiety, guilt, and insomnia no matter what they do.

Cultural values and teachings can only go so far IMO. Say there was a psychopathic culture that was 100% geared toward training and raising new generations of psychopaths. It would only work for natural-born psychopaths IMO, and maybe a few people sitting on the border. Most other people will still have the inborn instincts that stop them from becoming psychopaths. Their motivation to avoid the negative emotions of guilt and remorse would stop them from performing the behaviours encouraged by the psychopathic culture.
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby crystal_richardson_ » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:16 am

but people justify hurting people everyday, and there is a lot of behaviour not even recognized as hurting someone, like taking someone's job.

so a bunch of people apply for job. only 1 person gets it, but by their getting it others don't. isn't that hurting them?

and that other person may need it more, so they are more hurt by not getting it than you are, and you are responsible.

...but it's fair competition right? <-- example of cultural rationalization to neutralize guilt for common people

then there is the army...and not just the army people themselves...but citizens who work and contribute to a society that can build such an army...do they feel responsible for killing?

no...because they didn't pull the trigger. they just helped make the gun. and according tot he culture, if you don't pull the trigger you didn't really kill someone.

and the army people have their own set of special rationalizations...like we're protecting not killing. the guy who invented the Ak-47 (a russian) said it was a weapon intended for defence lol

so it's like we have all these pre-packaged rationalizations our culture provides us, however they are not limitless, and beyond a certain point or in some circumstances a person will feel guilt, but only because there is no legitimate or recognized rationalization provided...

there could easily be...but it must be thought that those behaviours are undesirable for another reason...those for which there are not recognized cultural rationalizations.

so it's not as simply as hurting = guilt/remorse. because people hurt people everyday, directly and indirectly, rather it depends whether it's normal to rationalize away the hurt or not.

and the implication is that, these rationalizations are expanding to cover a much wider range of harmful behaviour toward others, where fewer and fewer situations are recognized as wrongfully harmful.

which = cultural psychopathy...but is it psychopathy? is there a distinction to be made between such harmful behaviour and psychopathy? if so, what?
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby fiveintime » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:20 am

MotherRussia wrote:once you realise that, it makes the world a much more sinister and scary place, because you never know for sure who is acting and who is actually a nice person.


How often does it actually really matter? If someone does something nice, can't you just appreciate it without worrying about what their motives are? I feel like a "sinister and scary world" is mostly a state of mind. That is, unless you live in a place like the rougher African countries, in which case it's just an observable fact.
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby crystal_richardson_ » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:26 am

i agree with that nine.

i don't see the world as a scary place. i see it as sinister, but i don't necessarily attach a negative judgement to it.

i think what you do is more important then why you do it, but i also recognize that why you do something alters the meaning behind the behaviour, which can in turn alter the affect or impact.

why should it?

because if you understand why someone did something you can predict when they will do it, or how they might do it differently given a different set of circumstances, and this expectation formation in turn alters the meaning of the immediate behaviour, because it evokes thoughts and feelings of past and future not just present.
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby Dulcet » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:42 am

fiveintime wrote:
MotherRussia wrote:once you realise that, it makes the world a much more sinister and scary place, because you never know for sure who is acting and who is actually a nice person.


How often does it actually really matter? If someone does something nice, can't you just appreciate it without worrying about what their motives are? I feel like a "sinister and scary world" is mostly a state of mind. That is, unless you live in a place like the rougher African countries, in which case it's just an observable fact.



I agree. It confuses me when people question my motives over something nice I did. I get it bc I look into the manipulation factor sometimes. But I also don't care if I'm being manipulated in exchange for something cool.

Why really matters to a lot of people. Sometimes why is useful. Like a guy buying you a ton of gifts bc he's controlling and wanting to own you. But. You can then decide if the gifts are worth blowing him out of your life later.

Maybe why does matter. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby crystal_richardson_ » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:46 am

MrsBrightside wrote:Maybe why does matter. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


i think it absolutely depends on what it is.

most often, why someone did something for me, like give me something, tells whether i will get more of it.

that's pretty important no?

again depends on what it is.

i think on some level everyone assesses motivations, they just may not care or be much concerned with predicting the person's future behaviour and so forget about it and just focus on what was done.
Last edited by crystal_richardson_ on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby MotherRussia » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:49 am

fiveintime wrote:
MotherRussia wrote:once you realise that, it makes the world a much more sinister and scary place, because you never know for sure who is acting and who is actually a nice person.


How often does it actually really matter? If someone does something nice, can't you just appreciate it without worrying about what their motives are? I feel like a "sinister and scary world" is mostly a state of mind. That is, unless you live in a place like the rougher African countries, in which case it's just an observable fact.


It matters because if a person is secretly psychopathic but they do something nice for me, then they are probably grooming me to get me to trust them in order to con me later.

If I take all actions at face value, I would get conned and played. Its basic street smarts to question people's motives behind their actions. Not every kind action or display of emotion/empathy is what it appears to be on the surface. People often have ulterior motives behind what they do. The only true acts of kindness are those that are kept secret and that you would never know about, in most cases.
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby crystal_richardson_ » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:53 am

hey, by all means continue the discussion down the topic (as i can see it developing) true altruism, but if you could, or still find it interesting, address the op as well :)

do you believe people harm others everyday, like as much as psychopaths do, but justify it or don't even regard it as harm due to cultural rationalizations?

and do you think psychopathy is different from a person simply using such rationalizations to a greater or different degree?
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Re: Sub-concious Justifications and Sub-clinical lack of E & Con

Postby fiveintime » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:55 am

MotherRussia wrote:It matters because if a person is secretly psychopathic but they do something nice for me, then they are probably be grooming me to get me to trust them in order to con me later.


Accepting kindness doesn't mean you have to be a pushover. Just exercise general practical precautions, and if things turn, you turn too.

"Why" definitely matters, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea to waste cycles thinking about it.
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